Digital Scanners

chromii · Post by **chromii** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:21 pm

Please correct me if I'm wrong !
But my understanding is that the police digital system uses:
Motorola's APCO 25 also called ASTRO 25 Trunking System.

As we all know DSE & others are selling Scanners which are
supposedly able to decrypt & track this system.

Now here is the big ? I thought that although they can do this the
propeller heads who designed the system will also add their own
encryption layer (128bit 2fish) on top of APCO 25.

Now I know enough to know this layer will NOT be CRACKED period.
Plus I believe that it is also a rolling encryption so you can't brutt force it.
As it will be updated long before we get Quantum PC on our desks.

So what I want to clear up is:
1. Has this 2nd layer of encryption been enabled on all talk groups?
2. If not when is it likely due for roll-out ?
3. Assuming no 2nd layer, Do these digital scanners work in Perth ?

To finish up if they don't work how to the bastards who are selling
them get away with blatant false advertising !

Post by **Tyranus** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:07 pm

From the stuff I've read yes the new system will indeed be based on the Motorola APCO 25 Trunking system.

The trunking scanners available I believe have to be programmed with the particular Trunk pattern/codes in, so that you can pick up one company which is trunking with another company on the same channels effectively, presumeably they will be doing this with districts. One district with 1 "encryption" and one with another.

If they don't have that extra layer of encryption, then yes these fandangled scanners would be able to be setup to listen in to the police and receive traffic as per normal. You are however correct that when you're looking at the money they're putting into it, their encryption will be strong.

You are correct that it would take some pretty powerfull computers and a pinch of luck to crack the encryption, though by the time you've cracked it, it'll have probably changed. In fact it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they went one step further and had a 256bit encryption system running just to play it safe.

1) I believe it's there, on most if not all, however they still have an analogue link for any radios/cars that have not yet received the upgrade.
2) From a mate who's with the police for the speed cameras, it was meant to be rolling out a week ago, or so but more than likely it will be when all radios are digital, and it has been thoroughly tested.
3)If someone is doing trunking to that system, probably looking at big companies that want 10 channels but may only use 2 at a time might have an overlap of available frequencies with another company, in which case yes, if you programmed in the code for the company you would only be able to listen that company, but you would be able to listen to them on whichever frequency you plugged in, as the scanner would ignore the encryptions of the other companies using the same frequency. Does anyone in perth use this (other than the police now)...don't know...probably not.

I realise not quite a "professional" opionion, but that's my understanding of how the trunking etc. works, and what I've seen/heard about the new system being setup.

chromii · Post by **chromii** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:24 pm

Cheers Tyranus

From what I have read, it does imply you need the ID & group code.
So far (Uniden 996T) I can lock onto broardcasts which give an ID.
Plus a single syllable is often heard before it gets squelched out.

Warning ! Programming Digital Scanners causes Tourette's Syndrome.

Post by **Tyranus** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:45 pm

chromii wrote: Warning ! Programming Digital Scanners causes Tourette's Syndrome.

Warlord · Post by **Warlord** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:05 pm

To finish up if they don't work how to the bastards who are selling
them get away with blatant false advertising !

Easy mate. Product Ignorance and lack of product knowledge.

Years ago you would find people working in DSE and Tandy who had a fair bit of radio communications knowledge selling you your new whizz bang scanner and could offer you well informed advice.

However nowadays it is more just someone wanting to earn a living. (Can't blame them for that).

The thing about the new system where everyone gets confused and can not tell the difference is the term 'digital'.

Most people say "Oh the new system is digital, it can only be monitored by a digital capable scanner".
Which is true, however where the confusion sets in is when the system is digital with digital encryption..
Most people don't know the difference between to the two protocols.

Victoria has digital encryption running across it's entire Digital UHF System.

However somtimes when works are taking place they seem to patch through to one particualr TGID for a certain area that is not encrypted. Not sure why that is. So I have that TGID locked out at all times in the event I can get an hour two of good old VKC action. Failing that I have to resort to listening to the Police in the rural areas of the state which is on the VHF Band (unencrypted). However hearing about Farmer Brown's sheep being out on the main road doesn't seem to have the same sting to it as a call to a brawl involving 40 people at the local train station.

godinoz · Post by **godinoz** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:30 am

Warning ! Programming Digital Scanners causes Tourette's Syndrome.[/quote]
On ya, brother from another mother. :smt073

APCO 25 Encrypted · Post by **APCO 25 Encrypted** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:40 am

chromii wrote:Warning ! Programming Digital Scanners causes Tourette's Syndrome.

I disagree with that statement. Programming a digital scanner is no harder than programming an analogue scanner. If you wish to program the DIGITAL scanner to follow APCO 25 Smartzone trunking systems, yes, it is harder but not by much. If you are looking at programming your digital scanner to monitor the new system and you dont know much about it, do a google search on the system you wish to monitor and you will find all the information required to do so. Then its just step by step per the USER MANUAL on trunked system programming.

If anyone needs help regarding this issue, dont hesitate to PM me.

By the way, when the new WAPOL system is up and running, it will be running as a APCO 25 DIGITAL Smartzone Omnilink system running DES multikey encryption with rolling keys. ( when encryption is switched on, kiss goodbye to WAPOL monitoring )

frankstowing · Post by **frankstowing** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:28 am

i would just like to update something the digital encryption that is going to happen nd your all going to love this will be the following demon cars drug squad trg and other crime cars the following will not be encrypted ie general duties and traffic (there is a god looking out for towies lol ) but most sensetive job will go over tardis but we will still here general stuff with the digital scanners and this comes from a reliable source

Fastlane · Post by **Fastlane** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:47 am

frankstowing wrote:i would just like to update something the digital encryption that is going to happen nd your all going to love this will be the following demon cars drug squad trg and other crime cars the following will not be encrypted ie general duties and traffic (there is a god looking out for towies lol ) but most sensetive job will go over tardis but we will still here general stuff with the digital scanners and this comes from a reliable source

I doubt very much they would fork out so much for a new radio network and only selectively encrypt parts of it. They have the system and hardware in place to do it - they would be mad not to encrypt the lot.

APCO 25 Encrypted · Post by **APCO 25 Encrypted** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:36 pm

My sources from inside the WAPOL comms has advised me that ALL areas will be APCO 25 Encrypted. But, the most sensitive dept.'s will be getting encryption first then so on and so forth as the rollout continues along with the testing.

CHEV4EVR · Post by **CHEV4EVR** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:48 pm

APCO 25 Encrypted wrote:My sources from inside the WAPOL comms has advised me that ALL areas will be APCO 25 Encrypted. But, the most sensitive dept.'s will be getting encryption first then so on and so forth as the rollout continues along with the testing.

Those districts actively using TADIS and talkgroups have already had the encryption keys activated. Try and scan the non analogue linked talk groups and see what you get.