getting tracked

[danoroth]

so i was wondering, if someone uses a CB radio from America, and it is using a different frequency, (not 476-477mhz), but not a frequency that anyone in the area uses, no police, no companies and no emergency channels etc. Then who would report them, and how the hell does the technology work that allows you to track someone, and is it a pinpoint location?

[yorky]

If you saw the ACMA vehicles in the other thread, they have signal tracker equipment on board, often attached to a four antenna array that is able to pinpoint where the signal is coming from, they can then drive straight to your door.

There are even events setup for Amateur's to learn the art by setting up a low power transmitter and then they go and 'find' it with the appropriate equipment.

EDIT: The same technology is used for older fashioned Lo-Jack equipped vehicle where as when they are stolen a radio transmitter is activated in the car which Police (not in Aus mostly US/UK) then track straight to the vehicle. All they have is a screen with an arrow and signal strength and it leads them straight to the vehicle/transmitter.

[Blinky]

so i was wondering, if someone uses a CB radio from America, and it is using a different frequency, (not 476-477mhz), but not a frequency that anyone in the area uses, no police, no companies and no emergency channels etc. Then who would report them, and how the hell does the technology work that allows you to track someone, and is it a pinpoint location?

How do you know no-one uses the frequencies you refer to?

[Zebedee]

so i was wondering, if someone uses a CB radio from America, and it is using a different frequency, (not 476-477mhz), but not a frequency that anyone in the area uses, no police, no companies and no emergency channels etc. Then who would report them, and how the hell does the technology work that allows you to track someone, and is it a pinpoint location?

There's a number of ways to do it, Yorky has described one such way.

Another way it to triangulate the source of the signal from at a few known points. Let's say for example there's a radio tuned to the frequency you're investigating on top of the Police Headquarters building in the city. That radio is connected to a directional antenna (so it receives the signal only from one direction). That antenna is rotated until the signal is strongest, and it's measured at around 330 degrees from that point. So you know that the transmitter is somewhere in a line at 330 degrees from the police headquarters building. You don't know where along that line it is, just that it's along that line.

Now let's say you get another radio in the middle of Kings Park, connected to another antenna. The signal is strongest at a bearing of 5 degrees from that point, so you draw another line on a map. Where those two lines intersect is the approximate location of the transmitter.

You can keep refining the location by measuring more bearings from more points. Let's use the old Midland Railway Workshops as another point and measure the strongest signal is on a bearing of 272 degrees from there. That's a third line drawn on the map.

Those three lines intersect somewhere around the McDonald's at the corner of Wanneroo Road and Morley Drive if I've got my bearings correct from a very rough calculation.

So if you're the ACMA, you can narrow down using that method to an area of at least two or three streets, half a suburb, etc. Then you can send your detector vans to the area and do the same thing again and keep narrowing it down until you pinpoint it to an actual house.

The whole process if they want to be super-efficient can be done in an hour, probably even less, with the right equipment.

And even if the "target" is moving, they can still keep adjusting their measurements to "track" the transmitter. It adds one more layer of complexity but it's not really significantly harder to do.

[Nosferatu]

so i was wondering, if someone uses a CB radio from America, and it is using a different frequency, (not 476-477mhz), but not a frequency that anyone in the area uses, no police, no companies and no emergency channels etc. Then who would report them, and how the hell does the technology work that allows you to track someone, and is it a pinpoint location?

Good question actually ... I am curious about it too ... Does ACMA respond only when someone complain about an interference or are they (ACMA) actively scan all across the spectrum and police them ? Are they actually listen to every band and monitor who is supposed to be in that bands and who is not supposed to be in that bands ? If they do it like that ... I guess it will be hard work for them and require a lot of resources ... like hiring a lot of people to do it ... assign each of them to monitor different bands ... That's crazy ...

To add more of the complications ... some interference signals are weak and only apply to certain area ... so they have to have different people monitoring different area ... that's insane ...

[vk6hgr]

AFAIK ACMA respond only to interference complaints and don't actively monitor. THey are busy enough keeping up with complaints!

Major carriers have their own equipment that can sniff out sources of interference. A particularly nasty source is wireless LAN gear that works at ~900MHz. The class-licensed spectrum in Australia is smaller than that in the USA and misconfigured wireless gear can and does interfere with GSM mobile base stations. In these cases the carriers can say, "hey, there's someone operating on our licensed frequency, and they're right over... there!"

[danoroth]

so i was wondering, if someone uses a CB radio from America, and it is using a different frequency, (not 476-477mhz), but not a frequency that anyone in the area uses, no police, no companies and no emergency channels etc. Then who would report them, and how the hell does the technology work that allows you to track someone, and is it a pinpoint location?

Good question actually ... I am curious about it too ... Does ACMA respond only when someone complain about an interference or are they (ACMA) actively scan all across the spectrum and police them ? Are they actually listen to every band and monitor who is supposed to be in that bands and who is not supposed to be in that bands ? If they do it like that ... I guess it will be hard work for them and require a lot of resources ... like hiring a lot of people to do it ... assign each of them to monitor different bands ... That's crazy ...

To add more of the complications ... some interference signals are weak and only apply to certain area ... so they have to have different people monitoring different area ... that's insane ...

I know right! very curious, I am kinda merging out of the CB radio faze now, the prices are too high and i think that they are too short of a talk range for the money, e.g. i got them LXT 118 from USA for $31 including shipping, they are normally $20, and they go 18 miles. And they're like 0.5 watt, the only 0.5W CB radios i can find in Aus go only (MAX) 3km, which probably means like 0.5km, if that.

The frequencies and channels in my area are currently not licensed, (even to the police), in the radius of my radios from USA, but i just don't want to chance anything (coming Christmas).

Well i thank all your helping support, and wish you all a merry Christmas

[Nosferatu]

I know right! very curious, I am kinda merging out of the CB radio faze now, the prices are too high and i think that they are too short of a talk range for the money, e.g. i got them LXT 118 from USA for $31 including shipping, they are normally $20, and they go 18 miles. And they're like 0.5 watt, the only 0.5W CB radios i can find in Aus go only (MAX) 3km, which probably means like 0.5km, if that.

The frequencies and channels in my area are currently not licensed, (even to the police), in the radius of my radios from USA, but i just don't want to chance anything (coming Christmas).

Well i thank all your helping support, and wish you all a merry Christmas

Hey... just before you go ... Since you merged out of the CB radio faze ... Would you consider getting an Amateur Radio License at all ? ... I can guarantee that it's extremely fun to have one ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio

And you can get it from here ...

http://hamcollege.com.au/wordpress/

And yeah ... Merry Christmas ... Good to have conversation with you ...

[yorky]

Quoted KM range on radios are totally pulled out of thin air. They differ because that is a the max they think it should go CLEAR LINE OF SITE perfect weather etc etc.

I would bet 18 miles out of an omnidirectional little handheld is 99% of the time unattainable unless SPECIFIC conditions are met. In the suburbs/or lots of trees good luck doing 500m. I've done the same tests at ground level on a 0.5W, and got about 600m in the suburbs. 5W (talking handheld antennas here) the least was less than 1KM.

[Zebedee]

I know right! very curious, I am kinda merging out of the CB radio faze now, the prices are too high and i think that they are too short of a talk range for the money, e.g. i got them LXT 118 from USA for $31 including shipping, they are normally $20, and they go 18 miles. And they're like 0.5 watt, the only 0.5W CB radios i can find in Aus go only (MAX) 3km, which probably means like 0.5km, if that.

As Yorky said ... "Quoted KM range on radios are totally pulled out of thin air" - although I'd have probably said they were pulled from somewhere else

Sure. If you're in an open field, with no radio frequency noise at all, and the batteries on the two radios are fully charged, and you stand on one leg and face north, while wearing a red shirt, you may get 18 miles range from one of those. But you'd really be pushing the proverbial uphill.

It all has to do with what obstacles are in the way between you and whatever else is there. Yorky's right, a kilometre or two of "real world" use is more accurate I'd say. In other words, don't believe the marketing spin. Someone says "18 miles" and some other manufacturer says "3km". Perhaps the second manufacturer isn't over-inflating his claims to the same degree as the first guy. (Of course it's also possible to talk to astronauts on the International Space Station on 5 watts, and they're at an altitude of 370km! How's that for range? )

If you're talking through a repeater system, you're going to get much better range than talking directly between two radios. Why? Because repeaters are generally set up in locations with really good coverage and they can "see" a long way. Your 5W handheld can't get more than a kilometre or so going direct from one radio to another but has no trouble reaching the repeater that's 30km away on a tall hill in the Darling Scarp. So it'd be possible to be in Joondalup, talking to someone in Cannington via a repeater (just picking two locations out of thin air there), providing both radios had access to a repeater that was somewhere in between.

On CB, repeater channels are 1-8 and 31-38 (for 40 channel sets), plus 41-48 and 71-78 if you have one of the newer 80 channel sets. Providing your radio has a "repeater" or "duplex" mode (and most of them do), then you can use a repeater to get much better coverage.

Hey... just before you go ... Since you merged out of the CB radio faze ... Would you consider getting an Amateur Radio License at all ? ... I can guarantee that it's extremely fun to have one ...

Plus of course even the entry level amateur radio licence allows for twice the transmit power than CBers can legally use and only goes up from there! Plus you get access to big chunks of radio freqencies that you just don't get on CB

[danoroth]

I know right! very curious, I am kinda merging out of the CB radio faze now, the prices are too high and i think that they are too short of a talk range for the money, e.g. i got them LXT 118 from USA for $31 including shipping, they are normally $20, and they go 18 miles. And they're like 0.5 watt, the only 0.5W CB radios i can find in Aus go only (MAX) 3km, which probably means like 0.5km, if that.

As Yorky said ... "Quoted KM range on radios are totally pulled out of thin air" - although I'd have probably said they were pulled from somewhere else

Sure. If you're in an open field, with no radio frequency noise at all, and the batteries on the two radios are fully charged, and you stand on one leg and face north, while wearing a red shirt, you may get 18 miles range from one of those. But you'd really be pushing the proverbial uphill.

It all has to do with what obstacles are in the way between you and whatever else is there. Yorky's right, a kilometre or two of "real world" use is more accurate I'd say. In other words, don't believe the marketing spin. Someone says "18 miles" and some other manufacturer says "3km". Perhaps the second manufacturer isn't over-inflating his claims to the same degree as the first guy. (Of course it's also possible to talk to astronauts on the International Space Station on 5 watts, and they're at an altitude of 370km! How's that for range? )

If you're talking through a repeater system, you're going to get much better range than talking directly between two radios. Why? Because repeaters are generally set up in locations with really good coverage and they can "see" a long way. Your 5W handheld can't get more than a kilometre or so going direct from one radio to another but has no trouble reaching the repeater that's 30km away on a tall hill in the Darling Scarp. So it'd be possible to be in Joondalup, talking to someone in Cannington via a repeater (just picking two locations out of thin air there), providing both radios had access to a repeater that was somewhere in between.

On CB, repeater channels are 1-8 and 31-38 (for 40 channel sets), plus 41-48 and 71-78 if you have one of the newer 80 channel sets. Providing your radio has a "repeater" or "duplex" mode (and most of them do), then you can use a repeater to get much better coverage.

Hey... just before you go ... Since you merged out of the CB radio faze ... Would you consider getting an Amateur Radio License at all ? ... I can guarantee that it's extremely fun to have one ...

Plus of course even the entry level amateur radio license allows for twice the transmit power than CBers can legally use and only goes up from there! Plus you get access to big chunks of radio frequencies that you just don't get on CB

Well as i said on my first post on this site, I am 16, but believe me, a lot more mature than most 16 year olds in my year. I am i old enough to actually get a license? and if so, can i do the test on my PC at home?

[Nosferatu]

Well as i said on my first post on this site, I am 16, but believe me, a lot more mature than most 16 year olds in my year. I am i old enough to actually get a license? and if so, can i do the test on my PC at home?

Yeah ... definitely ... there is no age restriction in getting an Amateur Radio License ... there are some primary school kids who already got them as part of their scout program ... but anyway ... the test cannot be done at home ... but it's quick anyway and once you get it it ... the qualification will last a life time ... of course you will have to pay the yearly license fee (it's cheap anyway) but you don't have to do anymore test after that ... only once and that's it ...

You can ask Zebedee if you're interested ...

[Zebedee]

Well as i said on my first post on this site, I am 16, but believe me, a lot more mature than most 16 year olds in my year. I am i old enough to actually get a license? and if so, can i do the test on my PC at home?

Anyone who has the required knowledge to pass the exam (a simple 25-question multi-choice paper) can get a licence.

See here for more info

http://www.wia.org.au/discover/introduction/about/

http://www.wia.org.au/licenses/foundation/about/

There are currently two organisations in WA conducting training and assessments for amateur radio qualifications and licences. They are the Scouts (as Nosfetaru said) and Ham College.

If it's something you're serious about doing, let me know and I'll give you all the info you need

[robbage]

The only way you're going to get 18 miles with a handheld like that under normal conditions is on the ocean. 18 miles is more or less from you to the horizon.. probably further.
I've got a lot further using 2 watts but that was with a good quality antenna mounted about 4 metres above the roof.
Your antenna system is everything.

[danoroth]

The only way you're going to get 18 miles with a handheld like that under normal conditions is on the ocean. 18 miles is more or less from you to the horizon.. probably further.
I've got a lot further using 2 watts but that was with a good quality antenna mounted about 4 metres above the roof.
Your antenna system is everything.

Well, today would be a handy time to have a CB radio, with the weather updates etc. PLEAAASSEE can you give me a site, (even a url) to a product with decent TX range, i have $57.51 to buy one, and i would like it to be in Australia, thanks