Transperth Security and Transit Officers

[bawds25]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the info - its really interesting hearing about the difference between Wilson 'Transit Officers' and PTA Transit Officers. Im new to this forum so ill introduct myself... I currently work as a Security Officer at Royal Perth Hospital (a public officer... not a contact security officer, in case your wondering). I've been interested in the PTA transit officer position for a while but was on p-plates and was told that i couldnt join as you need a full licence... this was a while ago and ive since applied again, just waiting for a response now.

I thought that i'd give the Wilsons position a go, to get some experience and knowledge of the transport system and maybe this would help when i get to the interview stages of PTA transit officer recruitment. That was until i found this forum haha. The stuff i hear about these Wilsons guys is shocking, ive heard a little bit from cops that come into the hospital but god... these guys must be bad! Im really considering not even going through with a job in Wilsons, even if it is just until i get into PTA.

Anyways, i thought i'd contribute to this thread, so ive done a little research into the last question asked - whether or not a Wilson 'transit officer' can do anything if you refuse to give your name and/or address when asked. So ill add to the response that Fastlane gave. I used to study law, until i realised that i was sleeping through almost every lecture (its REALLY boring stuff), but i did pick up some skills in research and interpretation. So here is an extract of the Criminal Investigation (Identifying People) Act that will give you an understanding of their powers in relation to name/address.

Just remember that in this section 'officer' refers to a police officer, PTA transit officer, Wilsons transit officer (ie. an Authorised Person under the PTA Act), and a few other law enforcement officers that are defined in the regs.

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16. Officer may ask for name, address, etc.

(1) In this section —
personal details, in relation to a person, means —

(a) the person’s full name;
(b) the person’s date of birth;
(c) the address of where the person is living;
(d) the address of where the person usually lives.

(2) If an officer reasonably suspects that a person whose personal details are unknown to the officer —
(a) has committed or is committing or is about to commit an offence; or
(b) may be able to assist in the investigation of an offence or a suspected offence,

the officer may request the person to give the officer any or all of the person’s personal details.

(3) If an officer reasonably suspects that a personal detail given by a person in response to a request is false, the officer may request the person to produce evidence of the correctness of the detail.

(4) A person to whom a request is made under subsection (2) or (3) may request the officer making the request to identify himself or herself.

(5) An officer who is requested by a person to identify himself or herself must do so.

(6) A person who, without reasonable excuse, does not comply with a request made under subsection (2) or (3) commits an offence.
Penalty: Imprisonment for 12 months.

(7) For the purposes of subsection (6), the fact that an officer did not comply with subsection (5) as soon as practicable is a reasonable excuse.

(8) A person who, in response to a request made under subsection (2), gives any false personal details commits an offence.
Penalty: Imprisonment for 12 months.

(9) A person who, in response to a request made under subsection (3), produces any false evidence commits an offence.
Penalty: Imprisonment for 12 months.

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So, basically, if a Wilsons transit officer asks you for your name and address and you refuse, he or she can arrest you (using citizen arrest powers) as the penalty includes inprisonment.

Hope this helps

PS. Please keep posting as this is good stuff!

[woobla1]

So, basically, if a Wilsons transit officer asks you for your name and address and you refuse, he or she can arrest you (using citizen arrest powers) as the penalty includes inprisonment.

Hope this helps

PS. Please keep posting as this is good stuff!

Thanks for the info.. Though I don't know if you are 100% correct. Whether in fact Wilsons are authorised by the PTA or simply 'contracted' by the PTA are two separate things. And whether their definition falls under the term of officer. I don't think the PTA would freely give out arrest powers to a bunch of 3 day trained people. When in fact police, PTA officers have to go through months of training and laws on arrest powers.

So I would further wonder about that. As for whether you should join Wilsons.... this is my opinion only but I wouldn't go from what sounds like a pretty good place to work for, and go into these guys which are pretty much a company of parking lots who are dabbling in security, I think you can do better for yourself. I think you've got a pretty good attitude, don't sell yourself short and go into the PTA officer wannabes, wait until you can get into the real thing. Have confidence in yourself and read up on some good interview techniques and I think you will get into the PTA with no worries.

[Nafenn]

but,

If we ask someone to identify themselves, and they do not have a badge (any pta or police officer will have a badge, they cannot clock on without it) or refuse to do so, do we not have the right to refuse?

I mean, what if some random was on the train asking for tickets, and someone did not have one... They are then giving their details to a random..

[Tyranus]

nafenn, that's what bawds25 has highlighted. If they can't produce their badge/card when you ask then you are legally allowed to refuse to provide your details to them. If it turns out they are an authorised officer and they try and charge you, the charges would be dropped because he didn't ID himself/herself.
Woobla1 I'd expect the PTA would be aware of these sorts of legal issues and under the contract to the provider it would authorise them to act on behalf of the PTA and therefore so long as it is justifiable Wilsons will have the same powers of arrest\fining etc.

[nra555]

So if a guard asks for my details, I can request to see ID, if they ID themselfs as Wilsons, can i refuse to give them My details, but instead say that i will give my details to a PTA or Police officer?

will i still be arrested, and with that, what are the laws of citizens arrest? can a wilsons gaurd, or any other citizen restrain me physicley or can they just say dont move the police are coming?

[Tyranus]

No you still have to provide your details to them if they are a wilsons guard. A citizens arrest you should not physically restrain them. You're opening yourself up if you do and you're incorrect.

[Nafenn]

I found this on the Legal Aid web page: ("http://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/InfoAbout ... curity.xml")

Powers of Security Officers and Crowd Controllers
In Western Australia, security officers and crowd controllers have no greater arrest powers than those of an ordinary citizen. They may place you under a 'citizen's' arrest if they reasonably believe that you have committed an offence or are in the course of committing an offence.

...

What Information do you have to Provide?
You are under no obligation to answer any questions asked by a officers or crowd controllers except in the examples given below. Even if you go with the security officer to the Manager's office or elsewhere, (either voluntarily or under arrest), you are under no compulsion to answer any questions.

Remember: Whatever you tell the security officer, store manager or other people may be used against you in court.

Do you have to give your Name and Address?
You are under no general obligation to give your name and address to a security officer or crowd controller.

However if you trespass on a property the owner or manager can ask your name and address and it is an offence to refuse to give it or to provide false details. Trespassing includes remaining on premises when you have been asked to leave.

If any employee of a licensed premise believes you are a juvenile they can ask your age and request identification. It is an offence to refuse without a reasonable excuse or to give false information. You can also be removed with reasonable force from the premises.

You must give your name, address and date of birth to police officers when they request you to do so.

[bawds25]

Like i said before Nafenn, Wilsons Transit Officers are not ordinary Security Officers, they are appointed as 'Authorised Persons' under the PTA Act.

This means that they do have considerable power and you MUST give them your name and address. To make it a little simpler... PTA Transit Officers and Wilsons Transit Officers get their powers to demand name and address from the SAME section of legislation (I inserted this in my previous post). And if you refuse, they can arrest you (using a citizens arrest) and can use as much force that is reasonably necessary to effect that arrest and overcome any force used against them - this power to use force is provided in the Criminal Investigations Act and applies to both citizens arrest and police-made arrests.

Its sometimes confusing with security personnel, there are so many different security officers around and each have different powers. Some examples:

- Some Security Officers are employed by City Councils and in some cases they have similar powers as rangers, they can fine and/or arrest you for some offences.

- Some Security Officers are government workers (eg. where i work, Royal Perth Hospital) so in these cases they may have access to other specific legislation (eg. Fremantle Hospital by-laws, Bentley Hospital by-laws etc.) and they can also arrest you for 'obstructing a public officer', an offence that doesnt apply to private security personnel - in most cases though they would still use 'citizen arrest' powers.

- Security Officers in courts and custody centres (usually working for GSL) have extensive powers similar to that of a prison officer.

So when it comes to security officers, try not to think as them as all the same - cos they're not.

Another note on citizen's arrest - in my job we still use 'citizens arrest' when arresting persons who commit offences, and i think i would rather use a citizens arrest than have police arrest powers, cos there are more RESPONSIBILITIES and OBLIGATIONS that come with police-like arrest powers. Here is the section of the Criminal Investigations Act which explains the rights of people when they are arrested my police and other 'law enforcement personnel' who have SPECIFIC arrest power. These rights NO NOT apply when someone is arrested using a citizens arrest (eg. by a wilsons transit officer)

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137. Arrested people, rights of
(1) In this section —
officer means a police officer, a public officer, or any person who holds an office with power to arrest people.
(2) This section applies to a person who has been arrested by an officer, no matter under what authority or written law.
(3) The arrested person is entitled —
(a) to any necessary medical treatment;
(b) to a reasonable degree of privacy from the mass media;
(c) to a reasonable opportunity to communicate or to attempt to communicate with a relative or friend to inform that person of his or her whereabouts; and

(d) if he or she is for any reason unable to understand or communicate in spoken English sufficiently, to be assisted in doing so by an interpreter or other qualified person.

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Hope this helps

[Caddy1]

At the end of the day what does it matter. If you enjoy your job, your employed and your paying your rent/mortgage and supporting your family who cares what you do! If I lost my job and the only job I could get was as a Transperth Security Officer with Wilsons I would do it rather then be on the dole. Maybe some of the people who work for Wilsons have lost their jobs and that was all that was available to them.

[woobla1]

Damn no wonder the police were complaining about a year ago about the rise of 'fake police' and powers in the security industry. Too many jokers with arrest powers. As for the citizens arrest, wouldn't you then be open up to civil issues? such as damages if you get it wrong coming directly out of your house, and assets instead of the company?.

[Fastlane]

Damn no wonder the police were complaining about a year ago about the rise of 'fake police' and powers in the security industry. Too many jokers with arrest powers. As for the citizens arrest, wouldn't you then be open up to civil issues? such as damages if you get it wrong coming directly out of your house, and assets instead of the company?.

One thing that is taught in the Municipal Law Enforcement courses (Rangers etc), is to leave the whole arrest thing to the cops. There are some bits of legislation that rangers work under where they could legally arrest someone, but in reality it isnt worth it. Leave that stuff up to those that have had the training on arrest procedures etc..

With regards to the PTA stuff, the PTA Act states the person must be given a certificate/letter/ID card that states that they are authorised and under what parts of the act. If a Wilson guard cant produce this, they legally don't have authorisation.. This requirement is common in alot of acts and with some the format of the card is even prescribed in the regulations (and if it doesnt include all of that info in a similar format, its not legal). You'll find that alot of the ID cards given out by Local Govt are not quite what they should be....

[Caddy1]

You'll find that alot of the ID cards given out by Local Govt are not quite what they should be....

Aint that the truth!!! I think ours are the worst!

[bawds25]

I heard that the IDs issued to PTA Transit Officers are similar to those issued to WAPOL Constables... any truth here? I once saw a plain clothed/off duty/undercover (not too sure) pull out his badge and shout "railway police, stop right there!" at this young gothic kid who accidently dropped a steal cammo box on the train... i figure the Transit Officer must of thought it might have been a bomb or somethin..

Anyways, so whats the deal with IDs, do the PTA Transit Officers and Wilsons Transit Officers get issued with the same IDs? and do they look similar to those issued to Police?

[Nafenn]

I heard that the IDs issued to PTA Transit Officers are similar to those issued to WAPOL Constables... any truth here? I once saw a plain clothed/off duty/undercover (not too sure) pull out his badge and shout "railway police, stop right there!" at this young gothic kid who accidently dropped a steal cammo box on the train... i figure the Transit Officer must of thought it might have been a bomb or somethin..

Anyways, so whats the deal with IDs, do the PTA Transit Officers and Wilsons Transit Officers get issued with the same IDs? and do they look similar to those issued to Police?

PTA officers are the police, when on railway propperty anyway. they have the same powers as a police officer - so they basically are police.

Railway Police Officers have the same powers and obligations on Public Transport Authority property as any police officer. This means that a Railway Police Officer can arrest you at the train station or on Public Transport Authority property without a warrant if they reasonably suspect that you have committed any offence related to railways.

as for wilsons guards, i am not 100% sure what powers they have

[bawds25]

So are PTA Transit Officers still appointed as 'Railway Police' under the Government Railways Act... as well as 'Security Officers' and 'Authorised Persons' under the Public Transport Authority Act?