So... what do you think of this latest decision?

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doggie015
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So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by doggie015 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:45 am

On the midland, armadale/thornlie and fremantle lines they are apparently trialing sending 2 car trains instead of 4 car trains during peak times... at the same frequency as before...

There are not enough #-o 's for this...

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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by vk6hgr » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:03 am

I don't have the article in front of me right now, but didn't the Mandurah line exceed its 2020 passenger estimates some time this year? They've probably taken cars out of service on the Freo, Midland and Armadale lines to try and service the ever-growing Joondalup and Mandurah lines.
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doggie015
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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by doggie015 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:53 pm

I hope they've learned the hard way that the Joondalup and Mandurah lines aren't the only ones that experience very high demand during peak times! I wonder how many complaints about train overcrowding they received while the lines were operating with reduced carriages...

jezza
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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by jezza » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:36 am

State Labour says they'll buy another 30 cars if they win the next election.

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-30/w ... section=wa

doggie015
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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by doggie015 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:50 am

jezza wrote:State Labour says they'll buy another 30 cars if they win the next election.

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-30/w ... section=wa
That'll just mean 30 more cars sitting at the depot collecting dust.

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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by vk6hgr » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:55 am

doggie015 wrote:
jezza wrote:State Labour says they'll buy another 30 cars if they win the next election.

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-30/w ... section=wa
That'll just mean 30 more cars sitting at the depot collecting dust.
Why's that? No drivers?
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doggie015
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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by doggie015 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:42 pm

vk6hgr wrote:
doggie015 wrote:
jezza wrote:State Labour says they'll buy another 30 cars if they win the next election.

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-30/w ... section=wa
That'll just mean 30 more cars sitting at the depot collecting dust.
Why's that? No drivers?
No, it's the capacity of the lines. You can only send so many cars down a line at once without accidents occuring. While it may not be a case of another 30 collecting dust there will certainly be at least one more train's worth of cars sitting at the depots either for repairs or because of a lack of drivers. Besides which the B sets can only safely be used in 6 car consists on the Mandurah/Clarkson line, the stations of other lines are spaced too close together to allow for safe braking from line speed and the stations are just not long enough to support them. You could send a 3 car set but what's the point of that when you can send 4 cars for the same trip?

Don't get me wrong; this will allow more A sets to be used on the other lines but I just don't see all 10 trains worth fitting into the already heavily stressed network. It's not just timing but it's also getting the trains supplied with electricity to drive them! Remember that electrical fire which caused mass closures a few months back? I would not be surprised if there are a few more as the old transformers start to feel the strain of the load that 10 extra trains will produce (This is assuming that the purchase actually happens of course!)

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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by LighteningCrashes » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:39 pm

doggie015 wrote:
Besides which the B sets can only safely be used in 6 car consists on the Mandurah/Clarkson line, the stations of other lines are spaced too close together to allow for safe braking from line speed and the stations are just not long enough to support them.
Its more a case of exceeding the designed duty cycle (overloading) of the equipment than not stopping in time. If it was a case of not being able to stop in time the trains would run slower. The Mandurah platform at West Leederville and Showgrounds stations are long enough for 6 car sets.
doggie015 wrote:You could send a 3 car set but what's the point of that when you can send 4 cars for the same trip?
Point being efficiency. (i) Less energy used and (ii) the fact that 4 car set ~ 600 pax vs 3 car set ~ 700 pax.
doggie015 wrote:Don't get me wrong; this will allow more A sets to be used on the other lines but I just don't see all 10 trains worth fitting into the already heavily stressed network. It's not just timing but it's also getting the trains supplied with electricity to drive them! Remember that electrical fire which caused mass closures a few months back? I would not be surprised if there are a few more as the old transformers start to feel the strain of the load that 10 extra trains will produce (This is assuming that the purchase actually happens of course!)
Haha. Transformer fire was a result of construction works not excessive train movements. I would be surprised if there were more because it would mean the protective devices are failing which is more of a concern than the tranny failing!

1357
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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by 1357 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:12 am

Bear in mind that the Fremantle line was upped to peak hour every 7/8 minutes from every 10 minutes* as of the platform changes, plus an extra Armadale C service (4:58 if I remember correctly).

*except for a couple of 15 min gaps in the morning.

doggie015
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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by doggie015 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:13 pm

1357 wrote:...*except for a couple of 15 min gaps in the morning.
Yeah, as the armadale line now goes through to fremantle they have to deal with the Australind going out and back in. At least they don't have to worry about the Indian Pacific, the Prospecter and the Avonlink causing disruption on the fremantle line for a little while!

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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by Infernal » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:34 pm

Im sorry but I find a lot of the comments here about line capacity to be rubbish

Singapore MRT can run 6 car trainsets with 3 min gaps on lines where stations are less than 10 mins walking distance apart, with out any problems

jezza
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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by jezza » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:05 pm

AO11912 wrote:Singapore MRT can run 6 car trainsets with 3 min gaps on lines where stations are less than 10 mins walking distance apart, with out any problems
That may be true, but the issue is signalling. A line is divided up into blocks, with a signal controlling entry into each block. The closer your blocks are to each other, the more trains you can run on a line, however at the expense of speed. Mandurah/Joondalup lines are designed to be high speed (130kph max) with their stations further away from each other, and therefore have their signals spaced further apart. I think that at peak hour the lines are almost to capacity, and if there was any delay in one train up the line, closer running times would flow on the the rest of the trains in the line.

Singapore on the other hand would probably have much smaller blocks, (or even use in-cab signalling) however this lowers the speed of the line. (especially if their stations are 10mins walk away from each other)

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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by rustynswrail » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:53 am

jezza wrote:
AO11912 wrote:Singapore MRT can run 6 car trainsets with 3 min gaps on lines where stations are less than 10 mins walking distance apart, with out any problems
That may be true, but the issue is signalling. A line is divided up into blocks, with a signal controlling entry into each block. The closer your blocks are to each other, the more trains you can run on a line, however at the expense of speed. Mandurah/Joondalup lines are designed to be high speed (130kph max) with their stations further away from each other, and therefore have their signals spaced further apart. I think that at peak hour the lines are almost to capacity, and if there was any delay in one train up the line, closer running times would flow on the the rest of the trains in the line.

Singapore on the other hand would probably have much smaller blocks, (or even use in-cab signalling) however this lowers the speed of the line. (especially if their stations are 10mins walk away from each other)
Singapore, like to an extent, Hong Kong, like a number of other truly metro style systems use ATP or ATC or ATO, they being Automatic Train Protection / Control / Operation. Different names but basically the same thing. The driver is just there to open and close the doors, to ensure no one is stuck between the station doors and the train doors. In other examples no driver is present, the system is capabale of detecting a person stuck between the doors, it will not allow the fully automated train to depart.

Generally speaking and not looking at any one system, as the train proceeds it occupies a moving block, there are no track side signals throughout the majority of the system, there maybe some at junctions and yards etc. The system constantly monitors train progress, spacing, block protection in fact all aspects of the network. Both these systems (and many others) are perfect examples of what can be acheived when governments, irrespective of their colour, are prepared to spend the money on worthwhile public transit.

R

doggie015
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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by doggie015 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:38 pm

In many ways moving to an automated system is a good idea... but it could also turn a computer crash into a very physical crash very quickly!

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Re: So... what do you think of this latest decision?

Post by rustynswrail » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:16 am

doggie015 wrote:In many ways moving to an automated system is a good idea... but it could also turn a computer crash into a very physical crash very quickly!

In theory yes, it could but in practise if the main computer crashes and the back up crashes, then everything comes to a grinding halt very quickly.


R

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