St John Ambulance

[Fastlane]

The keyboard warriors begin. *sigh*

[4353]

gkoutlis: I think search.again was referring to the "20-30mins" she spent in VFAS care before being released BUT thats only whats been stated via media outlets.

I for one wouldnt go "dob" a patient in to police if they had told me oh i consumed "one dexie" (like stated in the media she had told the VFAS)

Like i said the only reason it seems the finger pointing has been done it all comes down to grief have to blame someone and youve read it all (Police,sniffer dogs,vfas,security)

Pull out a psch book and have a read i lost count how many times i was blamed for something not in my control.

"The ambulance was too late" "They didnt drive fast enough to the hospital" etc etc

Canon: I agree that some events should have at least A paramedic on duty mainly for fast airway access, iv drugs etc. Minutes is time wasted.

The only people that know what happened would be the ones on duty at the event, otherwise its all here say or misled or he said she said.

Just an angry stepdad who will prob cool down and apologise

Once upon a time SJA services was merely a "donation" but now to cover costs charges for services rendered (which is fair enough) i do know that alot of private medical services have stepped up in most states and have taken over doing events because of different reasons. I know one regular event that SJA VFAS do every week sometimes the crew dont show or even ring to say sorry we cant do find someone else and at another event they complain because $10 is not enough "food money" not saying all vfas staff behave this way would only be a small % otherwise they do a great job

[gkoutlis]

This is not a sledging place against VFAS...

We are bound by strict patient confidentiallity, and even IF vfas members did know the exact events that happend there that day, they wouldn't be posting about it anywhere.

I highly dis-agree with mentioning what duties vfas do and don't attend and complain about meals... It's not what people make it out to be, we don't all complain, nor do we not show up, just for the hell of it.

G

[SJANT]

From the age of 16 and upwards till you reach 18 is a bit of a grey area. The law recognises that you can be fully independant at this age e.g. don't have to go to school, can live away from home, work full time and even medically they recognise the right to self govern (autonomy). E.g a 17 year old can go to the doctor and receive treatment and they are not obliged to tell their parents.

Can you please enlighten me as to what other vital signs could've been taken at a hospital that can't be done by VFAS because i can't think of any with the exception of bloods and alcohol breath testing? VFAS has the capability to do pulse, resp, blood pressure, conscious state, spo2, cardiac monitoring (ecg), pupil reactions and there are even otoscopes and opthalmascopes available.

I bet if she was well enough to walk out then if she was transported she would've been triaged straight to the waiting room. I've seen this done for drug effected people if they are GCS 15 and non violent.

[search.again]

I bet if she was well enough to walk out then if she was transported she would've been triaged straight to the waiting room. I've seen this done for drug effected people if they are GCS 15 and non violent.(QUOTE).
This would have been a CYA for VFAS wear they have carried out the duty of care and referred her to Hospital, Based on Events she has the taken more than 1 quanity of Eccy,s This is providing the Pt has told the truth and has not mislead the first aid officer. I am NOT slanging VFAS as they do the job that no one else can do. But with every action carried out there must be account ability. If doubts are their it would and should be referred onto another department or ability to hand over to nurse/ Paramedic/ Doctor or Hospital. I believe CYA is the answer.

Time, place circumstances are a factor aswell and the fact as has been stated

How would I know I was not there

. This is correct but the coordinator of the event or SJA officer in charge should of been made aware and possible consequences of the person being discharged from care. Based on the Facts anyone who is under the infulance of drugs and Liquior under the age of 18 needs to be taken in to Protective Custody. This needs tobe Police, Hospital or Parent/ Guardian or Blood relitive over 18 years of age.

This would also constitute CYA.
Persons who take quanity of drugs should not be let go as there is potentail risk to themselves and others.
and with a police present there. Maybe a sit rep of what has taken place to Police would have been a Good counter measure.
End Of Rant

[munchkin1981]

just remeber tho if the casuality requests to leave there is nothing any vfas member can do if they try to touch that casuality then the person can have them for assualt and how do u know the OIC wasnt notified?

[Zebedee]

This is correct but the coordinator of the event or SJA officer in charge should of been made aware and possible consequences of the person being discharged from care. Based on the Facts anyone who is under the infulance of drugs and Liquior under the age of 18 needs to be taken in to Protective Custody. This needs tobe Police, Hospital or Parent/ Guardian or Blood relitive over 18 years of age.

Nice try, and that would be a perfect answer on 6PR, but it doesn't match reality.

The fact is, if there's someone refusing medical treatment, then there's not a thing you can do about it. Instead of this "culture of blame" of looking to make it someone else's fault and someone else's responsibility to look after people who make poor choices, how about we place that blame and responsibility right back where it should be - on the shoulders of the person concerned.

[canon]

This is correct but the coordinator of the event or SJA officer in charge should of been made aware and possible consequences of the person being discharged from care. Based on the Facts anyone who is under the infulance of drugs and Liquior under the age of 18 needs to be taken in to Protective Custody. This needs tobe Police, Hospital or Parent/ Guardian or Blood relitive over 18 years of age.

Nice try, and that would be a perfect answer on 6PR, but it doesn't match reality.

The fact is, if there's someone refusing medical treatment, then there's not a thing you can do about it. Instead of this "culture of blame" of looking to make it someone else's fault and someone else's responsibility to look after people who make poor choices, how about we place that blame and responsibility right back where it should be - on the shoulders of the person concerned.

Zeb that is somewhat incorrect and i dont wont to open a can of worms here but if there was any concern for the patient at the time ( and im not referring to the above example ) for their wellbeing then additional resources may be called in ie police, security, and even a paramedical team leader.I have lost count how many times that security and police have had to restrain patients and bring them in , and thats just outside RPH lol. One must remember that with many conditions inclusive of drugs, respiratory, trauma via head injuries, disease ie diabetes , the patient may become any in many cases will become combative and will try to refuse treatment so does that mean we just let them be. Again im not refering to the above mentioned as i was not there so cannot judge.

[Zebedee]

One must remember that with many conditions inclusive of drugs, respiratory, trauma via head injuries, disease ie diabetes , the patient may become any in many cases will become combative and will try to refuse treatment so does that mean we just let them be.

You raise a good point, and all I can answer is with what I have been trained with. Which is - anyone refusing treatment is to be left well alone. If the person falls unconscious then measures can be taken as an unconscious person has an implied request for help. Until then, don't touch.

That's my understanding and it's the rules that I therefore follow.

My point however was that the individual should be prepared to face the consequences of his or her actions, not try and make it everyone else's problem, or look to make it someone else's problem after the fact...

[wizzard]

You raise a good point, and all I can answer is with what I have been trained with. Which is - anyone refusing treatment is to be left well alone. If the person falls unconscious then measures can be taken as an unconscious person has an implied request for help. Until then, don't touch.

That is what we have been told, if a casualiyu refuses treatment then we are to leave them alone (as it can be assult if we treat them from then on) but if the casuality becomes unconscious, then they have implied that they require our assisntance.

[SJANT]

In the case of an unconscious casualty it is assumed that they would want everything done for them in an effort to save their life hence you are allowed to take all appropriate measures. That is what implied/assumed consent is in this case.

Don't quote me on this but the police under their powers have the power to forcibly have someone seek treatment in certain circumstances especially in the case of a suspected mental illness (see the mental health act) for example this is why you see them dragging people into ED.

When a person is competent to make a decision about their own treatment is a bit of a mine field and depends on various circumstances.

[Zebedee]

And in this specific case of the Big Day Out, if someone wants to leave, I don't think there's any option other than to let them. You can strongly suggest that they stay, but at the end of it, if they want to be somewhere else, they will be.

[canon]

One must remember that with many conditions inclusive of drugs, respiratory, trauma via head injuries, disease ie diabetes , the patient may become any in many cases will become combative and will try to refuse treatment so does that mean we just let them be.

You raise a good point, and all I can answer is with what I have been trained with. Which is - anyone refusing treatment is to be left well alone. If the person falls unconscious then measures can be taken as an unconscious person has an implied request for help. Until then, don't touch.

That's my understanding and it's the rules that I therefore follow.

My point however was that the individual should be prepared to face the consequences of his or her actions, not try and make it everyone else's problem, or look to make it someone else's problem after the fact...

a pre-hospital providers role is to treat the presenting problem of the patient regardless of who is accountable for what and not make any such presumptions. If someone requests medical aid and then refuses it then comes down to the discretion of the first aid provider in which 1- the patient signs off confirming refusal of treatment or 2- additional resources are called upon and as stated before certain conditions require prompt action and i would much rather treat a conscious patient than wait .

[Zebedee]

a pre-hospital providers role is to treat the presenting problem of the patient regardless of who is accountable for what and not make any such presumptions. If someone requests medical aid and then refuses it then comes down to the discretion of the first aid provider in which 1- the patient signs off confirming refusal of treatment or 2- additional resources are called upon and as stated before certain conditions require prompt action and i would much rather treat a conscious patient than wait .

That all sounds very interesting, however I cannot take the word of an anonymous post on an Internet forum over what I have been instructed in training. I stand my my previous statement, that my training requires me to be "hands off" any person who does not want first aid.

I'm sure that nobody on here would be irresponsible enough to advise that anyone deliberately acts against their training.

[canon]

a pre-hospital providers role is to treat the presenting problem of the patient regardless of who is accountable for what and not make any such presumptions. If someone requests medical aid and then refuses it then comes down to the discretion of the first aid provider in which 1- the patient signs off confirming refusal of treatment or 2- additional resources are called upon and as stated before certain conditions require prompt action and i would much rather treat a conscious patient than wait .

That all sounds very interesting, however I cannot take the word of an anonymous post on an Internet forum over what I have been instructed in training. I stand my my previous statement, that my training requires me to be "hands off" any person who does not want first aid.

I'm sure that nobody on here would be irresponsible enough to advise that anyone deliberately acts against their training.

For someone to seek medical aid in the first place indicates that they need assistance, the fact that they then refuse is neither here nor there, its up to the discretion of the pre-hospital provider. I never said that i would lay my hands on them if they refused treatment but if concerned enough would not hesitate to call additional resources in . Just to digress a little, i was told that water was the most expensive beverage at the BDO with exception of the mosh pits in which it was free and that ICED TEA of all things was free in the outer areas. How dows that work lol Hmmmmm diruetic with a poo load of sugar, yeh that will keep em hydrated l