question: if government take over then........

St John Ambulance (6DS), AMS, RFDS etc. Frequencies, callsigns and discussion.

Moderator: Infernal

Bozza83
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Perth

Post by Bozza83 »

It's interesting to read other peoples point of view in the matter. I think it's about time WA moved on and the state to take over the Ambulance Service. According to the annual report of NSW Ambulance it cost the state government just over $450 million to run the service - it costs the WA state government a mere $30mllion.
The question i would put to you all - would you accept a private police service? Should we privatisise the police and give the contract to Secureforce or Chubb?
People of WA deserve much more than St John Ambulance. St John as a private company, despite it being "non for profit" at the end of the day are there to make money. Why do you think they like to send crews out of the area on priority 3 transfers rather than attending emergency calls. Why havent they fought for more money from the state Government to put Paramedics in country towns. Country people need a paramedic more so than metro as hospitals are so far away and under resourced.

At the moment the WA economy is in good shape - we have no excuse not to have a first class Ambulance Service - even if the costs were half that of NSW.

According to the latest report by ABC McGinty is considering the Unions proposal!
Markmywords

Post by Markmywords »

Bozza83: Well stated and your facts are correct.

We can just wait and see.
gkoutlis
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5128
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:46 am

Post by gkoutlis »

Bozza,

I think that's abit harsh mate... - SJA have put funding into well deserved projects, including upgrading the facilities at HQ, Belmont - Upgrading their fleet.

People should give SJA a break. - It's just like criticising the Royal Flying Doctors - who are also Not for Profit Agency.... - I highly object to the label of SJA being their to only "make money" - it's unfounded... It's not what SJA is all about...It's not greed - there are perfectly good reasons why some Patient Transfers get picked over some emergency's even though I myself haven't noticed such things.

And before you ask, Yes I do volunteer for them both in first aid and as a beginner Vollie AO - And have never had 6DS divert us from a P2 to do a P3 instead....

Just my 2cents worth - we are all entitled to our opinion....
G
George
WARSUG Moderator
VFRS Member

"I am not one who was born in the possession of knowledge. I am one who is fond of antiquity, and earnest in seeking it there." — Confucius

Image

Any views expressed in the above post are my own and do not necessarily depict or reflect the views or opinions of DFES/FRS or VBFB.
Bozza83
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Perth

Post by Bozza83 »

gkoutlis,

I respect your opinion - of course they would not direct an ambulance from a priority 2 to a priority 3 - however they have directed all ambulances in a particular area on transfers. You say they have put a lot of money on fleet and their new HQ - well the new HQ isnt really helping the people of WA and as for the new fleet well so they should spend money on that - it is their responsibility to maintain the fleet if they want to remain the primary ambulance provider.

St Johns should, like in other states, stick to first aid training and volunteer first aid.
Another point i'd like to raise with St John is the lack of skills the Paramedics have. They go through the uni degree now but when they finally become Paramedics they dont have the skills like other Paramedics have in the country. It was only in the late 90's that they could actually cannulate and intubate patients - I believe under a state controlled ambulance service - the state could employ a Medical Director who is willing to provide the Paramedics with more skills. At the moment a lot of on road staff are frustrated.

As for the "non for profit" comment - i find it funny that most ambulances in Australia have "in an emergency call 000" St John Ambulances have "To Learn First Aid - call this number"

Im not saying St Johns are not adequate - they are adequate dont get me wrong, however we could have a better Ambulance Service.
In saying that I also acknowledge that all Services have their problems.
PFO
Banned
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:44 pm

Post by PFO »

Bozza83 wrote:gkoutlis,

I respect your opinion - of course they would not direct an ambulance from a priority 2 to a priority 3 - however they have directed all ambulances in a particular area on transfers. You say they have put a lot of money on fleet and their new HQ - well the new HQ isnt really helping the people of WA and as for the new fleet well so they should spend money on that - it is their responsibility to maintain the fleet if they want to remain the primary ambulance provider.

St Johns should, like in other states, stick to first aid training and volunteer first aid.
Another point i'd like to raise with St John is the lack of skills the Paramedics have. They go through the uni degree now but when they finally become Paramedics they dont have the skills like other Paramedics have in the country. It was only in the late 90's that they could actually cannulate and intubate patients - I believe under a state controlled ambulance service - the state could employ a Medical Director who is willing to provide the Paramedics with more skills. At the moment a lot of on road staff are frustrated.

As for the "non for profit" comment - i find it funny that most ambulances in Australia have "in an emergency call 000" St John Ambulances have "To Learn First Aid - call this number"

Im not saying St Johns are not adequate - they are adequate dont get me wrong, however we could have a better Ambulance Service.
In saying that I also acknowledge that all Services have their problems.
not all sja paras intubate and as far as im aware not all para vehicles have intubation gear in it. Bozza your statements are very valid. Most Paras that come over to WA are astonished that rural WA are still primarily vollies.Its also an embarrassment that people who do a 10 day course can go to the mines,earn twice that of a metro para,access to every drug known to man and be in control of hundreds of peoples lives. These courses need to either stop or have a stringent criteria which include both on road hours and clinical
gcs of 3
Bozza83
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: Perth

Post by Bozza83 »

PFO all WA Ambulances - except for 2 vollie crews - have a Paramedic and are set up for Advance Life Support equipment.
And even some vollie crews have Paramedic vehicles however obviously not allowed to use it.
Weedmeister
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:28 am
Location: somewhere

Post by Weedmeister »

Well guys I also respect your thoughts too.
PFO
Though St John's IS responsible for the level of training of it's volunteers and not the volunteers responsibile. The volunteers do an exceptional job considering limited training. It was not until 1978 that the fulltime ambos only started accredited training through TAFE.

The uni Degree that the fulltime paras do not is theroetical, then they go into indution school (just like before the degree though the health dept funded it). The paras choose wheather to use ET tube, LMA or whatever, though not totally obligated. One of these reasons would be that they don't get to practice skills readilly enough, unlike 2 tier response in QLD, NSW, VIC and SA ambulance services thI know of.

I'm glad to see the volunteer with VFAS and just starting out on the WAAS as a vol AO thinks of St John in a nice way. Volunteers get bagged a lot and is it their faut for not being properly trained in the first place??
Though I do also believe the current medical director has made many advances compared to his previous 'Hand-brake *****'. Though St John is accountable and needs to keep up on it's duty of care and standard of care. :?

Agreed that the holders of AAC or the so called 'Industrial Paramedic' course cgo off to the mines and think they will change the world.
I'm actively involved in a industry group that has produced guidelines on this which also recognises Millitary, En's & RN's appropriate to task with a CEP (continual ed program). :twisted:
What have other industry groups done about screening suitably qualified and competent personnel to work as Madics on mines?

QAS was the underdog ambulance service many years ago and has flashed past WAAS in many respsects. :x


Ha now toot toot on that one. :P
PFO
Banned
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:44 pm

Post by PFO »

Weedmeister wrote:Well guys I also respect your thoughts too.
PFO
Though St John's IS responsible for the level of training of it's volunteers and not the volunteers responsibile. The volunteers do an exceptional job considering limited training. It was not until 1978 that the fulltime ambos only started accredited training through TAFE.

The uni Degree that the fulltime paras do not is theroetical, then they go into indution school (just like before the degree though the health dept funded it). The paras choose wheather to use ET tube, LMA or whatever, though not totally obligated. One of these reasons would be that they don't get to practice skills readilly enough, unlike 2 tier response in QLD, NSW, VIC and SA ambulance services thI know of.

I'm glad to see the volunteer with VFAS and just starting out on the WAAS as a vol AO thinks of St John in a nice way. Volunteers get bagged a lot and is it their faut for not being properly trained in the first place??
Though I do also believe the current medical director has made many advances compared to his previous 'Hand-brake *****'. Though St John is accountable and needs to keep up on it's duty of care and standard of care. :?

Agreed that the holders of AAC or the so called 'Industrial Paramedic' course cgo off to the mines and think they will change the world.
I'm actively involved in a industry group that has produced guidelines on this which also recognises Millitary, En's & RN's appropriate to task with a CEP (continual ed program). :twisted:
What have other industry groups done about screening suitably qualified and competent personnel to work as Madics on mines?

QAS was the underdog ambulance service many years ago and has flashed past WAAS in many respsects. :x


Ha now toot toot on that one. :P
perhaps sja should train their vollies up to para level as they do in the NT and USA and many problems would be resolved
gcs of 3
Weedmeister
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:28 am
Location: somewhere

Post by Weedmeister »

Hi PFO, you're spot on the money; it comes down to two thnigs.
The union having 'Puffy Chest Syndrome'.
The present management structure.
So as long as these things are left in place the volunteers are left as a disadvantage.
Interestingly enough SJANT are also a private service too.
PFO
Banned
Posts: 433
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:44 pm

Post by PFO »

Weedmeister wrote:Hi PFO, you're spot on the money; it comes down to two thnigs.
The union having 'Puffy Chest Syndrome'.
The present management structure.
So as long as these things are left in place the volunteers are left as a disadvantage.
Interestingly enough SJANT are also a private service too.
always have been and plenty of their money from what ive been told also goes overseas as donations to st john facilities. At the end of the day, its a business and needs to be run as such, i just dont believe that having one private provider that is contracted to the government is the answer. Wa is currently under an influx of both providers that are legit and some not so much, but it all comes down to communication. why have all these services pulling in different directions when ideally have the capacity to unify these services Via the government so that the closest qualified crew is called to the scene and not one that is some 70kms away as has happened in the past
gcs of 3
musketeer
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Pulling in different directions

Post by musketeer »

Your thought are very valid guys but dare I say "logical", so we can guess that they won't be acted upon!!
No, I'm not cynical!!!
I'm not!
Weedmeister
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:28 am
Location: somewhere

Post by Weedmeister »

Hi Musketeer,
yes it's the lack of accountability as a private business that frustrates me. Publicly owned companies or listed on the ASX, even government departments are all accountable. Though SJA still have too many of the 'Good old boys'.. Sounds a bit Blues Brothers doesn't it??
:-({|=
Markmywords

Post by Markmywords »

In case you didnt know.

But "Apprantley" FESA have or been looking at trying to absorb SJA into the FESA structure.

Hey why not i say go for it and give SJA the boot.

SJA are NEVER accountable for how or why they send the funds they receive.

I have seen some patients wait ages for an ambulance for a transfer (and also seen vultures hanging around A & E's scabbing work)

Right or Wrong

The system is here it works as long as patient care is still put first over money.
Weedmeister
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:28 am
Location: somewhere

Post by Weedmeister »

Hello Markmywords,


I am disappointed with SJA and having no accountability, as you have correctly stated.

If it wasn't for the guys on the front line - The Ambos, the sevice was have been a lost cause long ago.
Though patient care is placed over money at the lower end of the service - The Ambos who really do care and want to make a difference.

I still can't see how SJA can justify water colour paintings as an 'investment', the CEO can drive a Stateman company car and retiriees (CEO & Med director) come back as 'consultants', when these positions have already been filled by others.
Even in my company, regardless of the postiton, the policy is to have a base model car. Hmmm, call me thick, call me dumb, I still don't understand the SJA psych.

You are one of many doing the best you can, with what you got. Though we are now in the 21st century now. Management need to think NOW and not in the past.
ZO100_marto
150+ posts
150+ posts
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:28 pm
Location: Country WA

Post by ZO100_marto »

Don't forget that the artist was the CEO's long time mate from Tasmania :wink:


To their due I had never heard of a company that has had the same person as the CEO for some 25 years. Who says they should be in the position for a maximum of 5 otherwise things go stale :twisted:

btw, Markmywords/Weedmeister - both well said, spot on as always!
Formally ZO100, now KG100 :D
ubc 72xlt...ubc 60xlt...uh015sx
Post Reply