Firies in the Hills

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ace of spades
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Firies in the Hills

Post by ace of spades »

Hey guys, heard this on the radio yesterday with howard sattler. Interesting arguement about there putting career guys in the hills and some vollies getting very upset. If there were perms in the hills area and able to get to these fires slightly quicker wouldn't that be a good thing? food for thought. The vollies do a great job but I think tht the reliance on these people is too much. The more firies getting there quicker is better right? I mean there is a place for everyone right and vollies are vitally needed and that will never change

anyway you can have a listen yourself

http://www.6pr.com.au/blogs/6prs-blog/p ... 18j6u.html
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by Zebedee »

Personally, I'd treat that radio show with about as much credibility as Today Tonight or A Current Affair. Lots of people with little clue, spouting off about things they know nothing about.
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bohong
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by bohong »

I agree, perms are needed in the hills, with the current support of the volunteers.

How can that guy say a few minutes don't make any difference. I have been to many a bushfire where the perms are there a good 10-15mins before any volunteer brigade arrives, and property's are under threat. So a few minutes do make a difference for asset protection and for fire suppression.

All the bushfire reports say that the best chance of supression is within the first few minutes.

And a few minutes CAN make a difference for a a critical casualty in a car crash.
bohong
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by bohong »

Zebedee wrote:Personally, I'd treat that radio show with about as much credibility as Today Tonight or A Current Affair. Lots of people with little clue, spouting off about things they know nothing about.

Can you please elaborate what the clueless people do not know about?

Do you not agree that a bushfire bearing down on houses needs an immediate response for asset protection, not a 10-14minute delay, or that 8 minutes for a person trapped in a car could save their life?

This show was not about Kalamunda but the hills area in general.

Are the hills residents not entitled to the same response as the guys on the flats?
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by Fastlane »

The union has its own vested interests. Vols also have their own vested interests.

You wont see a balanced, fair debate on a topic like this unless you remove both of those groups from the discussions/debate and leave it to the residents.

Having said that, fear mongering from Howard and conflict gets ratings - never mind what the real facts may (or may not) be.
bohong
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by bohong »

Fastlane wrote:The union has its own vested interests. Vols also have their own vested interests.

You wont see a balanced, fair debate on a topic like this unless you remove both of those groups from the discussions/debate and leave it to the residents.

Well said!!!
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by Zebedee »

bohong wrote:
Zebedee wrote:Personally, I'd treat that radio show with about as much credibility as Today Tonight or A Current Affair. Lots of people with little clue, spouting off about things they know nothing about.
Can you please elaborate what the clueless people do not know about?
Sure. They are clueless about everything. Full stop.

I haven't listened to the link because I simply refuse to pollute my brain with mindless drivel. It was a general comment of what I think of Sattler's show (and all the others in Australia's that are similar). It wasn't a comment about anything that was said, because I didn't listen to it in the first place.
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Sgt Seedy
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by Sgt Seedy »

Career firefighters, especially FRS are absolutly USELESS! in fighting Bush fires. By useless, I mean there will be no point in putting FRS in the hills with a Heavy Pumper. Either create a Career Bush Fire Brigade or increase DEC Heavy Duty tankers in the hills area.

and in my own experience FRS have little or no experience in fighting real bush fires. (I'm sure I'm going to get a verbal bashing over that comment, but it is true)

FRS are good for a bin fire or putting claremont city council chambers out.... They're NOT good for putting a 350 hectare fires out...
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by CobCob »

Sgt Seedy wrote:Career firefighters, especially FRS are absolutly USELESS! in fighting Bush fires. By useless, I mean there will be no point in putting FRS in the hills with a Heavy Pumper. Either create a Career Bush Fire Brigade or increase DEC Heavy Duty tankers in the hills area.

and in my own experience FRS have little or no experience in fighting real bush fires. (I'm sure I'm going to get a verbal bashing over that comment, but it is true)

FRS are good for a bin fire or putting claremont city council chambers out.... They're NOT good for putting a 350 hectare fires out...
Well that wins the stupidist comment of the year award. The Career guys have more than just heavy pumpers. That is why they have 2.4s and light tankers. I havent listened to the sattler program but if FESA was to put a career station at Kalamunda then it would be equipped with the appropriate appliances. As a career station they would require a pump for structural, rcr , hazmat and bushfire and a light tanker with a 2.4 for support as well. In my experience FRS has a great deal of experience fighting bush fires because believe it or not there is bush within ESL catergory 1 and not just on the fringes of Perth or out in the country.
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by Fastlane »

I know your post will be removed SGT, but I've found the complete opposite with Joondalup FRS. Great bunch of people to work with.
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by Helitak_670 »

all i can say is does it matter if it's a red or white truck, paid or not paid? Average turn out time for volies is 8 to 12 mins from the pager going off, not to bad when you really think about it, and have you see the video's of the FRS boys turning out. They casually get dressed and then turn out after a few mins. Yes time can make a difference, but not really a huge one at the end of the day.
bohong
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by bohong »

Helitak_670 wrote:all i can say is does it matter if it's a red or white truck, paid or not paid? Average turn out time for volies is 8 to 12 mins from the pager going off, not to bad when you really think about it, and have you see the video's of the FRS boys turning out. They casually get dressed and then turn out after a few mins. Yes time can make a difference, but not really a huge one at the end of the day.
Yes the perms may casually get dressed for some jobs but I can say that I have seem them a few times move when it is not a DBA, bin fire etc. They are mobile within 2 minutes generally.

So you are saying that 6-10 minutes (difference between career & vol) makes no difference? It makes a whole world of difference considering they will be on scene a lot of the time before a volunteer station has turned a wheel.

No one mentioned what colour truck it is, just turn out times for the betterment of the community.
Wannabee
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by Wannabee »

SGT WTF. Let's use the recent karnup fire as an example. Who were the first 4 arriving brigades? FRS. Who saved the petrol station and other property initially under threat? FRS. Come midnight when everyone wanted to go home tired who stayed and put in the hard yards? FRS. How do I know cause I was there. A litte more food for thought, net time your at a large scrubby have a look what colour the trucks are at the front putting themselves between the fire and assest, or getting in there and chasing it down and then have a look at what colour the trucks are sitting on the road waiting for it to come to them. The answer might change your opinion. Response times, hard work, knowledge and the willingness to get hot is what makes the difference between a small scrubby and a large one. No wonder there ain't a lot of big fires in FRS land............
kylep
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by kylep »

Hmm, what a new and novel concept. sure!
The Union has been arguing to have a career station put into the hills for years, particularly Kalamunda. There are many groups and decision malers involved, and what's funny enough is that they've made the decision that it's not necessary.

The risk is simply not there to need a Career Station.
There is on average less than 1 incident per day of the year in the Kalamunda area
There is 1 hospital, 1 moderate size shopping centre, and a few aged care facilities, and no major industry.

There is a (Career - doesn't matter) Station which is automatic back-up to most incidents which is only a matter of minutes behind

Helitacs is at the airport, can arrive at the same time as first arriving appliance.

Response time of the brigade is well under the 14 minute standard that Howard and the UFU were scaring people with

THOSE ARE FACTS

Now, look at it this way, Unions will look at the number of incident and say that they would be used for other jobs - backup more often. OK, so they'll be out of area, and have a longer response time.

There is a crew of 4 on a career station. 2 in the light tanker can get to work, the OIC of a first arriving appliance needs to start size-up and so on. The pumpy can get a live reel or maybe 1 length out.
A brigade like Kalamunda will have Light Tanker straight in, and a crew of 3-6 on the pump, and can get to serious work. Like using a pumper how it can be used at a bushfire. Try getting 10 lengths of 64mm Hose laid down the side of a hill and to work, with an SO and Motor Driver.

And I am in no way saying that Career crews are less capable at bush firefighting. But to NEED them to arrive a few minutes earlier than the current first response - ridiculous! Picking Kalamunda as an example was and has been in the past, a poor choice for the Union.

Kalamunda is well protected and has great support from surrounding areas. In a Bushfire, in bad fire conditions you'll get:
Kalamunda FRS - turnout ~5minutes max
Welshpool (or Midland) will be only minutes behind onto the scene
Kalamunda BFS - the Shire Fire crews will be one of the first on scene including above, then you have a couple of heavies, and LTs
Helitacs or Water Bombers inbound within minutes of first arrival (they have dropped before first arriving before as well)
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Re: Firies in the Hills

Post by kylep »

Wannabee wrote:<truncated> No wonder there ain't a lot of big fires in FRS land............
OK, I have to bite on this one. Trying to go for a 'who is better' argument? The correlation between area of scrubland responsible for and area burnt is much higher than who is responsible for it.

It's all well and good to say this when you have roads surrounding the bush with good access and good water supply. It's much tougher when there difficult access and a lack of safe area to work from.

This should not be a discussion of who is better. All of the various Services have their role to play. It's far easier to work with what you have and with the people you have around. You may actually learn a thing or two, or achieve a better result.
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