Helitak Thread

[Magnus]

Is the Sikorsky a S61L
That is the model that is reffered to as the Fire King, however, the difference between empty weight & max take off weight is less than 4000kg. Or can the weight be greater if already airborne prior to taking on the extra weight?

General characteristics

* Crew: 2 pilots
* Capacity: up to 30 passengers
* Length: 58 ft 11 in (17.96 m)
* Rotor diameter: 62 ft (18.9 m)
* Height: 17 ft 6 in (5.32 m)
* Disc area: 3,019 ft² (280.6 m²)
* Empty weight: 12,336 lb (5,595 kg)
* Loaded weight: lb (kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 19,000 lb (8,620 kg)
* Powerplant: 2× General Electric CT58-140 turboshafts, 1,500 shp (1,120 kW) each

Performance

* Maximum speed: 166 mph (267 km/h)
* Cruise speed: 120 kn (222 km/h)
* Range: 450 NM (833 km)
* Service ceiling: 12,500 ft (3,810 m)
* Rate of climb: 1,310-2,220 ft/min (400-670 m/min)

[Magnus]

The S61 deployed to WA in 2008 was from Carson Helicopters, who use a modified model, one of them crashed in California in 2008

Snipped from Wikipedia

"On 5 August 2008, two pilots and seven firefighters assigned to the Iron Complex fire in California's Shasta-Trinity National Forest, were killed when Carson Helicopters Sikorsky S-61N helicopter N612AZ crashed on take-off. Of the 13 people reported to be on-board, one other pilot and three firefighters survived the crash with serious or critical injuries. The NTSB determined that the probable causes of this accident was the following actions by Carson Helicopters: 1) the intentional understatement of the helicopter’s empty weight, 2) the alteration of the power available chart to exaggerate the helicopter’s lift capability, and 3) the practice of using unapproved above-minimum specification torque in performance calculations that, collectively, resulted in the pilots’ relying on performance calculations that significantly overestimated the helicopter’s load-carrying capacity and did not provide an adequate performance margin for a successful takeoff; and insufficient oversight by the U.S. Forest Service and the Federal Aviation Administration. Contributing to the accident was the failure of the flight crewmembers to address the fact that the helicopter had approached its maximum performance capability on their two prior departures from the accident site because they were accustomed to operating at the limit of the helicopter’s performance. Contributing to the fatalities were the immediate, intense fire that resulted from the spillage of fuel upon impact from the fuel tanks that were not crash resistant, the separation from the floor of the cabin seats that were not crash resistant, and the use of an inappropriate release mechanism on the cabin seat restraints"

[Helitak_670]

i am pretty sure that the tanks that are currently fitted is less than 4000lts of water. I do remember taking a photo of the carson tank and it was just above 3800lt. When i get a chance I will go have a look at the 2 at perth airport.

[Magnus]

61 just flew over heading west from airport

[TheDoc]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victor ... 5974936716


These have just arrived in for the Victorian fire season

[bohong]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victor ... 5974936716


These have just arrived in for the Victorian fire season

Interesting to note they are only 8000lts a drop.

The type 1's could do that in 2 drops with a quicker turn around.

[Helitak_670]

the cv580'S are for distance/speed to an incident while located at a central location. They do have 2x 61's based over in VIC similar to the ones based here. Don't forget that it's a very different terrain, and they also have the S64 skycrane with 9000lts.

[Wazza Y]

Why don't they look at a Mi-26TP? With twin Bambi bucket of 9,800L each it leaves even the Erickson skycrane for dead. If Russian trials are correct they apparently cost as little as 1/10th of a fixed wing on cost per liter of water dropped. ($0.05/L compared to $0.33-$0.55/L) and capable of 227km/h max stable flight fully loaded which is a good 24km/h more than the skycranes 203km/h max speed. At almost twice the size of the skycrane it would be an awesome thing to watch

[Helitak_670]

east vs west aircraft
Ruski's have some pretty good stuff out there, it's just a shame about the whole safety record which really hasn't got much to do with design error either.

[Wazza Y]

Yep, unfortunately the Australian Gov love to follow the American way. Very sad considering their safety record is similar if not better than the Skycrane and cost's less than half the price of it's nearest US rival. Never know, it's replacement is apparently going to be made as a joint venture with China so Australia may warm up to them, let's just hope Russia is in charge of Quality control and flight controls ect. I've had to rewire one of my made in China Christmas present's already. Nothing against the Chinese workers but more about there bosses and Gov.

[kyeboi]

the helitaks have left lake clifton and are heading back to perth airport

[dlcat1]

the cv580'S are for distance/speed to an incident while located at a central location. They do have 2x 61's based over in VIC similar to the ones based here. Don't forget that it's a very different terrain, and they also have the S64 skycrane with 9000lts.

My feeling is that the heavy fixed wing bomber trial the cv580s are part of (DC10 last year) is going to find the cost of leasing them for the season could be better spent on another S64 and a few Airtractor size bombers spread out a bit more. Bit of a pity as this season is wet over here and the cv580s might not get much of a run.

I think one of the other issues is helibucket v bellytank re the Russian choppers. I've seen the Kaman K-Max? and something I think was a Kamov with a 4500Lt bucket and the length of the line means they get used a lot differently from the Aircranes. There is nothing quite like having an aircrane for close support

[Wazza Y]

I think one of the other issues is helibucket v bellytank re the Russian choppers. I've seen the Kaman K-Max? and something I think was a Kamov with a 4500Lt bucket and the length of the line means they get used a lot differently from the Aircranes. There is nothing quite like having an aircrane for close support [/quote]

Possibly a Kamov KA-32. This is true, I know if a Helitak is going to drop 9 tonnes of water near me i'd like them close enough to see where the ground crews are. The Mi-26TP have a 30m line to the buckets to get them away from the rotor wash which increases the weight of the buckets due to wind resistance of down draught of rotors I think. There is also another version though that uses an internal 15,000L tank with controlled delivery through 1 or 2 vents but not sure if they are a permanent fit unit as opposed to the removable unit on the S-64 which makes it a little less useful in the off season. There was another version designed similar to the S-64 designated the Mi-26K flying crane but I don't think it went into production. Another drawback I suppose is 18.6Tonnes of water suddenly dropping can also do a whole lot of damage.
Mind you if the Helitaks get too good some of us would be out of a job, but at least more homes and lives could be saved which is the most important.

[dlcat1]

...I know if a Helitak is going to drop 9 tonnes of water near me i'd like them close enough to see where the ground crews are....
Mind you if the Helitaks get too good some of us would be out of a job, but at least more homes and lives could be saved which is the most important.

Exactly. Not sure how they get used in WA but from what I've seen the Kamov and the K-Max were getting used sort of as a standalone bomber, and had a huge crew exclusion area around them, whereas the smaller choppers with bucket or tank were getting used right over the crews. Also saw the Aircranes doing half and quarter dumps in support of ground crews, knocking the hot bits out so the ground crews could get in and finish them off. I don't think bombers will ever replace ground crews, but it sure makes the job easier.

[Helitak_670]

i have checked out 681 and there is no placard for how much water, but there is a placard saying max load 10,000lbs