DFES digital

WA Department of Fire and Emergency Services (6AR and 6IP) (Including the Fire Services, SES & VMRS) and Department of Biodiversity, Conservation and Attractions

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Robo
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Re: DFES digital

Post by Robo » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:53 pm

From what I just read someone has made a comment on what they must have been told by another party.

Fair enough questions were asked about this info but the way I read it it came across rather arrogant and aggressive.

I am not sticking up for anyone but looks like a couple of moderators here need to lead by example.

Bring on debate but leave the narky comments like 'blowing smoke' out. It doesn't help the discussion and frankly makes you look like a tool to outsiders.

interference
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Re: DFES digital

Post by interference » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:52 pm

Zebedee wrote:
interference wrote:This is clearly an agressive forum full of negative people trying to flame members. Apparently I am blowing smoke and my info is a crock so rather than discuss when and who will be going digital, I'd rather let you ignorant members work it out yourself. I am surprised anyone participates in this forum with the unmoderated offensive behaviour.
No, the only 'crock' here is that when someone asks you to back up a statement, you get all snippy about it. The request seemed reasonable - it's something new, it's something that perhaps people who work for or are associated with the emergency services haven't heard a whiff of before. Of course they're going to ask for more information.

I don't see any aggression, I don't see any negativity, I only see people asking you to justify and back up your claims. If you can't handle that, then maybe this isn't the forum for you. We generally don't "do" wild and unsubstantiated rumours around here.
You're an Admin of this forum? I wasn't offended by someone asking to back up my info - which if you reread my orginal post, I was asking others to share similar information - I was taken aback by the fact that I had some info to share (which by the way turns out to be correct - hence not a "crock" or "blowing smoke") and rather than discuss it, was basically called a liar by members. I raised the attitudes that really should be moderated, only to be abused by you - also a moderator. I have since learned of the Talkgroups in the Metro Area for Digital, the Country station allocation of the digital network and the ComCen operation plan for the digital rollout but quite frankly, am most appalled by your behaviour as an Admin/Moderator. The members should spend more time focusing on Scanning than abusing other members. Just a thought.

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Re: DFES digital

Post by Zebedee » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:22 pm

interference wrote:
Zebedee wrote:
interference wrote:This is clearly an agressive forum full of negative people trying to flame members. Apparently I am blowing smoke and my info is a crock so rather than discuss when and who will be going digital, I'd rather let you ignorant members work it out yourself. I am surprised anyone participates in this forum with the unmoderated offensive behaviour.
No, the only 'crock' here is that when someone asks you to back up a statement, you get all snippy about it. The request seemed reasonable - it's something new, it's something that perhaps people who work for or are associated with the emergency services haven't heard a whiff of before. Of course they're going to ask for more information.

I don't see any aggression, I don't see any negativity, I only see people asking you to justify and back up your claims. If you can't handle that, then maybe this isn't the forum for you. We generally don't "do" wild and unsubstantiated rumours around here.
You're an Admin of this forum? I wasn't offended by someone asking to back up my info - which if you reread my orginal post, I was asking others to share similar information - I was taken aback by the fact that I had some info to share (which by the way turns out to be correct - hence not a "crock" or "blowing smoke") and rather than discuss it, was basically called a liar by members. I raised the attitudes that really should be moderated, only to be abused by you - also a moderator. I have since learned of the Talkgroups in the Metro Area for Digital, the Country station allocation of the digital network and the ComCen operation plan for the digital rollout but quite frankly, am most appalled by your behaviour as an Admin/Moderator. The members should spend more time focusing on Scanning than abusing other members. Just a thought.
There's a world of difference between someone questioning the accuracy of the information and "calling you a liar" and you seem to have developed some kind of "they're out to get me" issue over it. In any arena with frank conversations and conflicting opinions you're going to get people disagreeing with you. How you choose to deal with that is entirely up to you.

As I said, there's people who work for and are associated with the various emergency services who have responded in this thread and you can hopefully understand and appreciate that if they've not heard so much as a whisper about such a system being implemented, they're going to be naturally skeptical. They're also going to voice that skepticism, sometimes quite bluntly or directly.

When an unsubstantiated and unverified claim is made by someone, that claim is going to be challenged - and rightly so. I don't see anything in the discussion so far that would warrant a claim of abusing other members. Nobody's called you nasty names or anything like that. To be frank - I think you're being somewhat precious about it. It's your choice whether to take that feedback on board or not but so far there's nothing in th is thread that I believe warrants any kind of moderation action.
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LighteningCrashes
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Re: DFES digital

Post by LighteningCrashes » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:29 pm

Robo wrote:
I am not sticking up for anyone but looks like a couple of moderators here need to lead by example.
x2. At the risk of having my account closed, I thought the retort by the two admins felt like an attempt at instigating a flame war.

Robo
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Re: DFES digital

Post by Robo » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:35 pm

Once again as an impartial third party I agree with you interference.

You stated something and was rightly questioned however questioned the wrong way I feel.

It appears all the admin/moderators are now sticking up for each other.

And too true lightning crashes. A few years ago (when this website was run better) I was threatened with being blocked for a lot less than I had seen in this post.

And generally when a post goes this far off track it's locked. But as the moderators are involved it is somehow allowed to continue.

I will finish with, bring on debate and discussion but do it with respect. Your all members of the same forum with similar interests. I have become involved when it really had nothing to do with me and may have ticked off some admin, but I don't hold any grudges and hope things get back on track.

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Re: DFES digital

Post by Zebedee » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:40 pm

LighteningCrashes wrote:
Robo wrote:
I am not sticking up for anyone but looks like a couple of moderators here need to lead by example.
x2. At the risk of having my account closed, I thought the retort by the two admins felt like an attempt at instigating a flame war.
Not at all - you're perfectly entitled to your opinion and I don't think anything that you said should put you in fear of having your account closed - I don't think we're THAT big a bunch of ogres are we? :) Same goes for you Robo - your opinion is your own and providing you or anyone else doesn't break the forum rules I don't see why you can't express that opinion, even if it's an opinion that disagrees with something a mod or an admin has said.

By the same token, just like anyone else, moderators and admins are human too and our "bulldust thresholds" are not always set to high. Sometimes having to deal with people complaining and being somewhat precious takes its toll... y'know?
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Re: DFES digital

Post by Turbo » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:31 pm

LighteningCrashes wrote:
Robo wrote:
I am not sticking up for anyone but looks like a couple of moderators here need to lead by example.
x2. At the risk of having my account closed, I thought the retort by the two admins felt like an attempt at instigating a flame war.
x3

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Re: DFES digital

Post by Zebedee » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:56 pm

Turbo wrote:
LighteningCrashes wrote:
Robo wrote:
I am not sticking up for anyone but looks like a couple of moderators here need to lead by example.
x2. At the risk of having my account closed, I thought the retort by the two admins felt like an attempt at instigating a flame war.
x3

x9000? :lol:
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FlashPoint
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Re: DFES digital

Post by FlashPoint » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:51 pm

Arvo all,
Back to topic, the radio model is the Motorola XTS-5000r.

According to the brief they are going to be plumbed into the police network, but first some security concerns need to be alleviated. Nothing more was said on that topic - I pushed but it was cloak and dagger it seems.

At the moment they are being tested for suitability within structural incidents, my brief 15 minute play at the training academy was promising comms were good and relatively simple to use with gloves on. There are a few nice features including an alarm button that broadcasts the station ID and radio ID presumably in-case you have an accident / want a laugh, and slightly offset volume controls - helpful while wearing gloves.

They are still being tested so there is plenty of time for this to fall in a heap, but it's looking promising for now. I can confirm some volunteer brigades are involved in the trial.

Link to the radio.
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Zebedee
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Re: DFES digital

Post by Zebedee » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:53 pm

FlashPoint wrote:According to the brief they are going to be plumbed into the police network, but first some security concerns need to be alleviated.
Wonder if they just want them to be on a separate 'virtual network' to the Police. Which could be as simple as setting up separate talk groups I guess. I don't really know - digital radio is all a dark art to me :)
At the moment they are being tested for suitability within structural incidents, my brief 15 minute play at the training academy was promising comms were good and relatively simple to use with gloves on.
That's a good thing to think of - what might be a very simple to use radio with bare hands could be completely hopeless when you're wearing all your kit!
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Re: DFES digital

Post by vk6hgr » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:01 pm

Would be using a separate talk group, but I'd guess the security concern to address could be that these radios can't in any way join the VKI groups.
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Re: DFES digital

Post by Zebedee » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:14 pm

vk6hgr wrote:Would be using a separate talk group, but I'd guess the security concern to address could be that these radios can't in any way join the VKI groups.
Different encryption keys? Would that do it?
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Re: DFES digital

Post by FlashPoint » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:31 pm

Zebedee wrote:
vk6hgr wrote:Would be using a separate talk group, but I'd guess the security concern to address could be that these radios can't in any way join the VKI groups.
Different encryption keys? Would that do it?
I don't think mixing and matching encryption keys would work, unless each channel / channel group could be allocated a specific key.

The problem with symmetric-keys (that I assume the radios use) is all the radios in the net are given the same key and should one of the keys get compromised the radios will need re-keyed. OTAR (Over the Air Re-keying) helps with this, but is only helpful if the missing radio is removed from the OTAR group so it doesn't receive the key update. This assumes the missing radio is picked up on in a meaningful time-frame, not too difficult control but it only takes one lazy individual to miss count a radio.

Then there's the problem of someone with less than pure thoughts getting hold of the radio - We can imagine what would happen then.

OTAR Info
Symmetric-key Info -- Only if really bored
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Re: DFES digital

Post by Zebedee » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:11 am

Makes sense and I could see why a handheld radio for example would only be able to store and use one encryption key at a time which might make it impractical...

Ah digital encrypted radio systems - so much to learn!
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kyeboi
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Re: DFES digital

Post by kyeboi » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:06 am

did mean to upset set any one when I said someone's ''blowing smoke up ya'' it was more that I couldn't see them running digital on career and not vollies there would be so much confusing and lack of info swapped, large bushfire or other incidents would be come more crazy than the all ready are.


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