At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your rights?

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Zebedee
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your rights?

Post by Zebedee »

Bonez wrote:What a great question for Inspector Neil Royal on 6PR.... hehe give him a ring and instead of whinging about roads and intersections, ask him a real question :)

I'd also love to know the answer!
I do recall someone asking this exact question on one of those road rules segments with Inspector Royle one day on 94.5

From memory, the official answer was that you commit an offence if you go beyond the white line. However the Inspector also said that if you were captured on a red light camera, the emergency vehicle would no doubt also be in the frame.

He said that in such a situation if you felt the fine to be unfair, you could write in and ask for that to be taken into account. Whether it would be successful depended on the individual circumstances.

That seemed like the best answer possible -of course the Inspector can't give people carte blanche permission to go jumping red lights, that would be silly. But I think considering each situation on its merits is the best option there.
vk6hgr wrote:I'd go through if it was safe to do so.
As would I, if I thought I could do it safely.
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singkenten
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your rights?

Post by singkenten »

most cars going priority through an intersection will just downgrade until the light goes green if they get stuck behind traffic at a red light as people do the most stupid things when they have sirens behind them... if I was driving I wouldnt expect anyone to push through a red light - it aint worth the risk...
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your rights?

Post by Zebedee »

singkenten wrote:...if I was driving I wouldnt expect anyone to push through a red light - it aint worth the risk...
I've seen an ambulance downgrade its lights and sirens once before on Beaufort Street when there was no chance of it being able to get through traffic that was heavy in both directions.

However as far as the red light goes - if I believed it was safe, and my moving over the line was going to allow an emergency vehicle to pass, then I'd likely do so. However it'd have to be evaluated at the time on its merits. I can't say that I always would or always wouldn't, it would depend on the situation...
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your rights?

Post by westernwedgey »

I heard this question posed to Inspector Neil Royal on 6PR also, further to what someone has said above he said it is an offence to proceed through the intersection on a red light, if you can move to a safe position and allow the emergency vehicle through do so or wait for a green light.

Anything else is illegal.
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your right

Post by ouchiemama »

As an ambulance paramedic I would like to say that you are not obliged to proceed through a red light if an emergency vehicle approaches you from behind. It is against the law; you can and will be charged if you get caught. An emergency vehicle will also be snapped at a red light camera (and multinovas) but will have the offence made void if on a Priority 1.

Emergency vehicles don't expect traffic to move and usually anticipate having to move around it ourselves. Please stay to the left where possible but please don't cross the line into the intersection unless the light is green.

Cheers
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your right

Post by LighteningCrashes »

God today on riverside drive an ambulance had to go along the DUP then cut back onto the road right at a red light so there were cars going left and right to give it some space down the middle of the two lanes.
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your right

Post by jmmw »

G'day Guys

Tl;dr- You can move beyond the white line if its safe to do so unless you live in WA.


First off guys the Driving handbook is a guide and should never be relied upon, nor can a radio interview, even commissioners make mistakes. Do the research!

First of all the Australian Road Rules (ARR) are (almost) uniform across every state and territory in Australia, Except WA. The aforementioned scenario is covered under regulations 78 & 79 of the ARR which states;

78 Keeping clear of police and emergency vehicles
(1) A driver must not move into the path of an approaching police or emergency vehicle that is displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other lights) or sounding an alarm.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
Note. Approaching, emergency vehicle and police vehicle are defined in the Dictionary.
(2) If a driver is in the path of an approaching police or emergency vehicle that is displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other lights) or sounding an alarm, the driver must move out of the path of the vehicle as soon as the driver can do so safely.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.
(3) This rule applies to the driver despite any other rule of these Rules

79 Giving way to police and emergency vehicles
(1) A driver must give way to a police or emergency vehicle that is displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other lights) or sounding an alarm.
Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

Note 1. Emergency vehicle and police vehicle are defined in the Dictionary.
Note 2. For this rule, give way means:
(a) if the driver is stopped—remain stationary until it is safe to proceed
, or
(b) in any other case—slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision,
—see the definition in the Dictionary.
(2) This rule applies to the driver despite any other rule that would otherwise require the driver of a police or emergency vehicle to give way to the driver.

The important provision in these rule 78 is part 3 is “any other rule of these rules” encompasses Regulations 56 through 61 of the ARR which are concerned with “obeying traffic lights and traffic arrows”. In rule 79 Note 2 it states “(a) if the driver is stopped—remain stationary until it is safe to proceed” So there is a defence regardless if whether the driver decides to move forward (SAFELY as the rule states) or whether they choose to remain stationary. However i have only verified this in NSW and SA legislation so you should consult your own states ARR just to be 100% sure.

This constitutes only my personal interpretation and the information is conveyed in good faith and does not constitute legal advice. Decisions should not be made and actions should not be taken without professional legal advice, because i might be wrong.
Last edited by jmmw on Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your right

Post by jmmw »

WA gets its traffic rules from the Road Traffic Code 2000 (WA) which has the following to say regarding Keeping clear of police and emergency vehicles (reg 60);

60. Keeping clear of police and emergency vehicles

(1) A driver shall give way to, and make every reasonable effort to
give a clear and uninterrupted passage to, every police or
emergency vehicle that is displaying a flashing blue or red light
(whether or not it is also displaying other lights) or sounding an
alarm.
Points: 4 Modified penalty: 3 PU

(2) This regulation applies to a driver despite any other regulation
that would otherwise require the driver of a police or emergency
vehicle to give way to the driver.

This does not give an explicit exception from any road rule to the citizen driver nor can i find an exception in the sections regarding traffic control lights. I cannot find any case law regarding this specific scenario (but i only spent 10-15 minutes looking) so there is no precedent , common law or anything said obiter dictum in a trial to help us interpret the rule. I suppose this means we would have to take the rule as it is written, you may get away without a conviction if you are able to convince a court that moving beyond the solid white stop line in an intersection was part of making “every reasonable effort” however it would be up to a magistrate.

This constitutes only my personal interpretation and the information is conveyed in good faith and does not constitute legal advice. Decisions should not be made and actions should not be taken without professional legal advice, because i might be wrong.
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your right

Post by Fastlane »

It's easy. This has been in the media before as someone had complained about getting an infringement for running a light to let an emergency vehicle past. The official line is, you are cannot run a red light to let an emergency vehicle pass as in doing so you are committing an offence. The code doesn't give you an exemption from its provisions to let an emergency vehicle past.. HOWEVER if you are instructed by a Police Officer to move in a certain direction to allow them passage, then you are following a direction given by that officer (and in fact, its an offence NOT to) and that is OK.

In other states you're permitted to run a red light etc (in fact, I believe you are obliged to) to allow the passage of an emergency vehicle.

The official word, in writing: http://www.fesa.wa.gov.au/internet/uplo ... hicles.pdf
Q: Can I break the law to give way to emergency vehicles, for example, driving through a red light?

A: No
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your right

Post by auntys_eyes »

Fastlane wrote:The official word, in writing: http://www.fesa.wa.gov.au/internet/uplo ... hicles.pdf
Q: Can I break the law to give way to emergency vehicles, for example, driving through a red light?

A: No
Be wary when selectively quoting documents. People would be well advised to read page 4 of the above document.
This brochure has been prepared in good faith and is derived from sources believed to be reliable and accurate at the time of publication. Nevertheless, the reliability and accuracy of the information cannot be guaranteed and FESA, St John Ambulance and the WA Police expressly disclaims liability for any act or omission done or not done in reliance on the information and for any consequences, whether direct or indirect, arising from such act or omission.

The information contained in this publication is a simple interpretation of the law, and is not intended to constitute legal advice. For exact statements of the law refer to the WA Road Traffic Act (1974) and Road Traffic Code 2000, as amended.
That's one mighty big disclaimer for such a small document.
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your right

Post by WPXZBP »

auntys_eyes wrote:Be wary when selectively quoting documents.
:smt023
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your right

Post by Fastlane »

Hey, the document is being distributed by FESA, St Johns & The Police. I think at least the last of those would have some idea as to what you can and cant do within the law...

Unless you'd rather see the whole Road Traffic Code pasted in here? :P
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your right

Post by offroada99 »

Tyranus wrote:Only 2 types of people can probably answer your question, 1) A serving WA police officer, 2) A Lawyer.
Anybody else is just going to be putting in their thoughts, opinions or personal reactions.
err... no, legal aid online and at a local branch, can tell you the info...
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Re: At a red light. Emergency vehicle behind you. Your right

Post by Zebedee »

offroada99 wrote:
Tyranus wrote:Only 2 types of people can probably answer your question, 1) A serving WA police officer, 2) A Lawyer.
Anybody else is just going to be putting in their thoughts, opinions or personal reactions.
err... no, legal aid online and at a local branch, can tell you the info...
Please don't bump old threads unless you have something material to the thread to add.
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