Question.

Frequencies, Callsigns and discussion on the WA Police Service radio (VKI)

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Zebedee
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Re: Question.

Post by Zebedee »

Mug wrote:I assume ACMA might get at you for unlicensed and / or unauthorized use of a transmitter, but maybe they'd go a bit soft because you meant well?
Well Mug, when you come and do your Foundation Amateur Radio licence, you'll learn the answer to that one! ;)

(Just pulling your chain :P But as Robbage says, in a distress situation where human life is at risk, anyone can use any means of communication at their disposal without fear of getting into hot water.)

Interesting theoretical though - even though you *could* use the police radio, it would depend on the circumstances at the time whether that was the best option. I'm leaning towards what the others have said, I'd be more inclined to call 000 and get medical services on the way. But then what if you're in an area with no phone signal, or you didn't have your phone on you? So many variables to be able to say conclusively one way is always going to be the best option...
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Re: Question.

Post by robbage »

I'm trying to remember where I read that. I think it might have been in the radio communications act of 1492. I could be wrong on the year :-)
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Re: Question.

Post by WAPOLuke »

If the crash is so bad that it totals the vehicle, and leaves the officers inside unconcious for a long period of time.. it would be a safe bet to think that the radio wouldn't be working (smashed into bits).. or if it wasn't.. it would be so hard to reach through the tangled deep in the wreck of a car, and after the time taken trying to use the vehicle radio, or wrangle a radio off an officers belt.. it would have just been much quicker to call 000.

That said.. if the scenario does present itself that you have access to a Police radio, and need to inform VKI of an extereme situation (And it must be pretty extreme.. otherwise the Police who got the radio from would be away ahead of you and on it!), you would then come across the hurdle of actually knowing how to properly use the radio. As other people have said.. they know how to use a phone, and not the radio. Police still can't figure them out sometimes. I think if you could pick it up, and use it straight away, and be able to communicate a clear and precise message, you would draw a much faster response from WAPOL, SJA and FESA.

That said... I hope this remains a what if scenario.. The last thing our WAPOL family needs is a few more lost lives..
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Re: Question.

Post by Zebedee »

WAPOLuke wrote:That said... I hope this remains a what if scenario.. The last thing our WAPOL family needs is a few more lost lives..
Exactly - nobody's wishing anything like this would ever happen, that's for certain.

But it's interesting "what if" scenario. And I think the key lesson to take away from this is that *IF* the situation arose where the only way of summoning help was to use a radio fitted to a police car (or a portable for that matter), then it would be legal and proper to do so. The debate over whether it's the most *EFFECTIVE* method of calling for assistance can never be solved, as nobody would know the answer until faced with such a situation...
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Re: Question.

Post by SteveNSWP »

Just from a Police Officer's perspective, if I was injured and trapped in a wrangled mess and unable to call for assistance, and a passerby came past I would not have a problem with them using the in car or my portable radio to call our comms for assistance.

We use codes for officer down etc here in NSW, commonly called a Signal One. But a good samaritan wouldnt need to know any codes to call for assistance. Simply getting on and giving the cars callsign, location (nearest corss st alandmark) and the condition of the officers should be sufficient. Also tell radio what resources you need ie: Ambos, Paramedics, Fire, Recue. Let them know how many officers are injuried and if they are concious, breathing, bleeding, and/or trapped. If u need to perform CPR advise the comms centre that u will be away from the radio perfoming CPR. Maybe supply ur mobile # over the air. That above info should start the cavilry and resources that u need to help us rolling. If they need any further info or an update, they can then contact ur phone as u commence CPR. I think using the radio (providing its safe and easy for you to reach) would be quicker. If u ring 000, the telstra operator patches u through to a comms centre for the approcpriate resource and area, then that centre must ask you 1000 q's, dispatch a fire/ambulance vehicle and then notify other resources for you. If u directly give Police Comms the above info, other cars will hear and respond whilst u are still relaying the info. Cops here and I would assume in WA are all CPR trained and may take over this role upon arrival.

MOST IMPORTANTLY never put urself at risk. If its too dangerous for u to reach us or our radio, use a phone and stay back. The last thing i would want is for someone coming to my aid to get hurt aswell. I probably wouldnt be able to live with myself knowing that u got hurt trying to save me. If you can, go the radio first I would say. If its too dangerous for you to come near the damaged vehicle (ie: because power lines are down or the vehicle is on fire), then look after urself first and ring 000 from ur mobile.

In relation to illegal use of the communication equipment, you are acting in good faith to protect life so u would never be criminally liable or criticised, infact u would be praised for ur quick thinking and assistance. Most ppl would spit on us before helping us, so if a member of the public was ever to assist me, I would be grateful and the thought of criminal charges would never come up.

If I was in another state and came across this type of scenario, especially given that I dont really know other states callsigns or radio procedures, I would simply call "URGENT". This is a common radio terminology in most Asutralian Police jurisdictions and denotes an immergency situation and priotised the caller over other cars. Radio would probably then respond saying, "Car calling urgent?" You could then state, "I'm a civilian and have located a police vehicle that has been involved in an accident. There are two officer's trapped, unconscious and not breathing. We are on such and such a road cross of such and such a street north bound. The nearest landmark is a such and such and is approximately 50 metres south of the crash site. I need ambos, firies and rescue. The callsign of the vehicle (if visible) is XXXXX)". If radio needs any further info they will ask. Then advise, "I will be away from the radio perfoming CPR, my mobile # is 000000000 and my name is XXXXXX XXXXX". Then do what you gotta do.

I hope that gives you an idea of the best way to call for assistance using our radios if u are ever unfortunate enough to have to. I also hope that it sheds a bit of light on what would probably be fastest and most effective. Just remember your own safety first!

Stay Safe,

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Re: Question.

Post by Zebedee »

Steve,

A very well thought out and well written post, and a really good insight from a serving police officer - thanks!

Before WAPOL went digital, the word "urgent" I've definitely heard in the context you used it, with VKI coming back with something along the lines of "Go ahead, car calling urgent" as you said. So to the police radio operators - and everyone else listening - that word "urgent" has a special meaning and everyone turns to listen I assume.

From a generalist radio perspective of course, the international signal for a distress situation where life is in danger is "MAYDAY", which under times of great stress or pressure, someone with some kind of training in radio procedures may also use automatically. I reckon it'd be a safe bet that using MAYDAY would also get everyone's attention pretty well too ;)


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Re: Question.

Post by SteveNSWP »

Ur welcome mate! Altough this is a very out there and hypathetical post, its great to see that people actually concider what they should do if they see Police in distress and its a very thoughtout question.

As a Police officer, its encouraging to think that non-police (civilians) actually care enough about us to ask what they should do when they come across a downed officer.

We go out everyday and put our lives on the line to make sure that the community and the people in it are kept safe, are protected, and feel that they can leave their own homes without being afraid of being assaulted, robbed etc. Whilst we arent always effective, thats what we strive for and sometimes that means we come unstuck ie: shot, stabbed, injured or involved in prangs ourselves. We arent infallible and we always accept and appreciate any assistance from the public. Its always comforting to know that the public are out there looking after us aswell. It really does make us who are inthe job realise who we are out there fighting for.

Down here we not long ago had two officers engaged in a violent struggle with a mental health patient. They were battling for about 20 minutes covered in blood and they were getting tired. Someone driving past saw that they were in trouble, and contacted 000 and told the operator that the police may not be able to get to their radios. And they hadent. A signal one came over and dozens of police arrived within minutes. Ive been there, and after fighting a losing fight and getting fatigued, the sound of sirens in the background or the offer of help from a passerby is music to our ears. Another incident was two police were attecked by a group of males. One was struck on the back of the head by a skateboard and went down. the rest kicked and punched the other officer whilst another bloke went for the gun of the officer that was down. All he could do was yell at his partner that they were going for his gun. Fortunately someone somewhere heard and looked out the window. They rang 000 and provided the info and somehow got the callsign of the car. No radio call was ever received from those police. U can imagine what they cops felt when they heard those sirens coming, and how lucky those cops are to be alive because of a concerned citizen.

Just on a final note with using the Police radio, calling mayday would certainly get the message across also. But apart from urgent/mayday, i wouldnt recomend attempting to use Police codes if u are non police. Most scanner listeners probably know most of the codes off the top of their heads, but it is because Police use them repeatidly that under stress they can still get them right. Sometimes knowing them without using them day in and day out isnt good enough, and if you attempt to use them under stress, u may give the wrong code, confuse the radio and other police, and delay responses. U may also incorrectly give the operator the impression that u are police and they will assume that u know what info to supply etc. Under stress u probably wont remember what to tell them, and if they know that u are civilian, they will know that they have to help you by asking you what they need to know. Code also varies from jurisdiction so under stress u may attempt to use those codes in a diffreent state/territory that means something completely different.

Anyways, thanks to those who care about us enough to ponder the question. We do appreciate the thought.

Cheers!








A very well thought out and well written post, and a really good insight from a serving police officer - thanks!

Before WAPOL went digital, the word "urgent" I've definitely heard in the context you used it, with VKI coming back with something along the lines of "Go ahead, car calling urgent" as you said. So to the police radio operators - and everyone else listening - that word "urgent" has a special meaning and everyone turns to listen I assume.

From a generalist radio perspective of course, the international signal for a distress situation where life is in danger is "MAYDAY", which under times of great stress or pressure, someone with some kind of training in radio procedures may also use automatically. I reckon it'd be a safe bet that using MAYDAY would also get everyone's attention pretty well too


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Re: Question.

Post by rob »

Thanks for your veiw Steve its good to read a post that actually means something and not just someone babling on about rubbish.
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Re: Question.

Post by spartacus »

in this clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOvPgrik ... re=related

at about the 4 minuet mark there is a civilian calling for help from the FDNY, he is trapped under rubble in one of their units. It shows that on occasions it is possible for a civilian to use an emergency radio.
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